Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

There never was a spectrum of Leaves...

Of course there was, is and always will be a spectrum of ways and degrees to which we could leave the EU. Turkey is not in the EU and is in the customs union. Norway and Switzerland and Iceland are not in the EU but are in the EEA. Of course there was always a spectrum in regards to what leave could mean. That you can claim there never was or is such a spectrum, to me just shows how much you are willing to deny reality in pursuit of your objective of leaving without a deal and without having to worry about if there really is majority support for such in the country.

There is a reason why before the referendum campaigning for leave from the likes of Farage and leave.eu campaign did not talk about leaving without a deal or campaign for such, did campaign on the basis we could easily get a cake and eat it deal and did keep talking about examples like Norway and Switzerland. Just as there is a reason why after the result this rhetoric was forgotten and replaced with 'anything other than a no deal exit is Brexit in name only'.

Just as there is a reason, even now, given the deadlock and mess we are in, there those (and you would appear to be one) who want a no deal exit and will try and find any means fair or foul of achieving it without having to get explicit consent of the people for such, whilst claiming the are doing so in the name of 'democracy'. If you believe in democracy then you would accept that we should not leave the EU without a deal unless there is a majority that wants this and stop making the ridiculous claim that the 2016 result was a mandate for this.

[erolz66]

Remainers always try and conflate Europe and the EU whereas Leavers very rarely confuse the two.

You mean like this man perhaps ?

[miltiades]

Erolz you may have noticed that when replying to posts by this highly intellectual , my arse, individual I respond in a jokingly fashion, the reason is because I know very well his type and that of those that voted leave. Frankly they do not give a toss about consequences following Brexit. All they want is NOT to be part of Europe, a sentiment that is profoundly embedded
In Little Englanders. The fervently also believe that the British Empire , which by the way killed millions, was ...godsend !!
My late father in law was also convinced that any nation under British rule had NO right to demand independence, calling those that rose against British occupation as... terrorist. These Little Enlanders also believe that if you are not English you are a bloody wog. Has this guy expressed any views on the decline if sterling? No. He doesn't care, just wants out citing ...democracy etc. The little englanders were hoodwinked by one Arsehole; Farafe and one Clown, Boris.

[cyprusgrump]

There we are, what counts as sensible debate from Remainers...

[erolz66]

Erolz you may have noticed that when replying to posts by this highly intellectual , my arse, individual I respond in a jokingly fashion, the reason is because I know very well his type and that of those that voted leave. Frankly they do not give a toss about consequences following Brexit. All they want is NOT to be part of Europe, a sentiment that is profoundly embedded
In Little Englanders. The fervently also believe that the British Empire , which by the way killed millions, was ...godsend !!
My late father in law was also convinced that any nation under British rule had NO right to demand independence, calling those that rose against British occupation as... terrorist. These Little Enlanders also believe that if you are not English you are a bloody wog. Has this guy expressed any views on the decline if sterling? No. He doesn't care, just wants out citing ...democracy etc. The little englanders were hoodwinked by one Arsehole; Farafe and one Clown, Boris.

People are free to vote anyway they like for any reasons they like, that is how democracy works. My point with the video clip was not that this person is typical of all those who voted leave or most of them but simply to challenge the claim that "Remainers always try and conflate Europe and the EU whereas Leavers very rarely confuse the two.".

What I do not accept is that the vote result in 2016 represents a clear majority mandate for leaving the EU without a deal. It does not represent that. There may be majority support for such and there may not be. To my mind only those who care more about getting what they want regardless of if that is a majority will or not (ie regardless of the basic principal of democracy) make such claims. They make them because they have no confidence that there is a majority support for such an exit.

[erolz66]

There we are, what counts as sensible debate from Remainers...

So you do think the man in that video supports your claim that "Remainers always try and conflate Europe and the EU whereas Leavers very rarely confuse the two." or undermines it ? You think claiming that "There never was a spectrum of Leaves" is sensible debate do you ? I guess your idea of 'sensible debate' and mine are somewhat different.

[Jerry]

The will of the dead and disenfranchisement of youth.

"A majority of British voters will soon back staying in the EU as more Leave backers die and Remain supporters reach voting age, according to a new study.
Analysis by the former president of YouGov found demographic changes mean around half a million fewer people each year, or around 1,350 a day, now support Brexit – meaning there will soon be enough to overturn the Brexit vote if there was a second referendum.
Even if no one had changed their mind since the 2016 referendum, population changes mean that, from 19 January 2019, a majority of voters will back staying in the EU, according to the analysis. By 29 March, when Britain is due to leave the bloc, the Remain side is forecast to have a majority of around 100,000.
Writing for The Independent, he said: “Early next year, Britain will switch from a pro-Brexit to an anti-Brexit country. To be more precise: if not a single voter in the referendum two years ago changes their mind, enough mainly Leave voters will have died and enough mainly Remain voters will have reached voting age to wipe out the Leave majority achieved in June 2016.
“This means that by 29 March, it will be difficult to sustain the argument that the settled view of the British electorate is that Brexit should take place. We are told that we should ‘respect the verdict of the people’, and not reopen the decision they – we – reached in 2016.
“The latest research shows that this depends not only on the proposition that voters cannot change their minds, but on a specific definition of ‘the people’.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 41971.html

According to some "democracy" is what some of the dead decided three years ago. The dead have more to say about our future than hundreds of thousands of youngsters who are now eligible to vote, what a bloody nonsense.

[cyprusgrump]

There we are, what counts as sensible debate from Remainers...

So you do think the man in that video supports your claim that "Remainers always try and conflate Europe and the EU whereas Leavers very rarely confuse the two." or undermines it ? You think claiming that "There never was a spectrum of Leaves" is sensible debate do you ? I guess your idea of 'sensible debate' and mine are somewhat different.

So your claim is that in a country of ~65M people, the views of one man (who looks a little senile to be honest) are representative of 17M+ people that voted Leave then...?

Very convincing I must say.

My friend, how many options were on the voting form for the referendum...?

Was there a selection of options, you know, remain, leave a bit, leave a lot, leave with a deal, leave with no deal, leave with terms that erolz66 is happy with?

No.

A binary choice, leave or remain.

Did the government promise to uphold the decision of the people? Yes.

Have they done so? No.

See, there never was a selection of Leaves... The great and the good offered the British Public a binary choice and they chose 'Leave'.

It really is as simple as that. And you may continue to argue that it wasn't the case but it is there in black and white.

[Londonrake]

GR. I understand the frustration but you really are wasting your time. You're just providing a handy target for their dummy in the dirt petulance.

They're "Democrats" to a man though of course.

[cyprusgrump]

According to some "democracy" is what some of the dead decided three years ago. The dead have more to say about our future than hundreds of thousands of youngsters who are now eligible to vote, what a bloody nonsense.

The Independent eh? The most inappropriately named 'newspaper' available in the UK!

So you go along with the theory that: -

1) Loads of the people of a certain age that voted Brexit have died. I seem to still be alive BTW.

2) Loads of youngsters that would have voted Remain have achieved voting age.

And yet, nobody would have achieved a certain age and changed their vote from Remain to Brexit?

I think that is stretching things a bit don't you?