Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

if the TRNC unilatrally declares tomorrow that it will allow GCs to return to their properies, provided they accept the soveregnity and recgonzie the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, this will be the final blow to the RoC. Recognition will be just a matter of time.

I'd have to see it to believe it. But remember it is not simply the fact that the TRNC currently prevents GCs from enjoying their homes that cause the international community grief, it is the means by which partition is enforced as well as attempts to change the demography of the isand.

The official language of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will be Turkish. I do not believe a change in the name would be necessary, for example Greece is not exclusively greek, it also belongs to the turkish minority there, so is Bulgaria. The TRNC will not be exclusively turkish either, it will belong to all of its residents. Safeguard mechanisms that will esnure the protection of minorities should be introduced for the full satisfaction of the TRNC citizens of greek origin.

I'm afraid I have to disagree here. Turkey as a country already exists, to call something 'Turkish' either indicates a link to the country or to the ethnicity of its citizens. The republic of Northern Cyprus would be a much more politically correct name for such a nation given the sheer number of citizens who would not consider themselves of Turkish ethnicity.
I also must disagree with the official language only being Turkish. Turkish can be the dominant language but Greek must also be official under such circumstances.

The population of the TRNC today is 232 thousand*, the total number of greek cypriot refugees is around 180 thousand, not all of which will return because the properties of some will be exchanged for turkish properties in the south, say swapping for around 50 000 TCs who left the South, the maximum number of GCS that will be eligible to return will be around 130-140 thousand. Clarly GCs will not be a majority of the TRNC and will constitute around a 1/3 of the total population.

Apologies, my earlier argument was not based on numbers but land ownership. My assumption being that the land ownership would be roughly proportional to the population. I believe this assumption should hold on the most part given the string correlation between land ownership and population (as you'd expect).
You must realise though, that the figures for population of the TRNC almost certainly include a number of settlers over and above normal rates of immigration. This is hardly surprising given the amount of land available in the North after partition in 1974.
Despite all this, if the TRNC allows all the settlers to stay then you are correct, the GCs would be 135/(232+135) = 37% of the population (let's call it a third for the sake of argument).
In addition, according to your figures 1/3 of the population would therefore own around 1368/2481 = 55% of the privately owned land.
That seems like a big imbalance to me, perhaps one likely to cause resent, especially amongst settlers who have been given land and now have that taken away. Also see that the population of the TRNC rises from 232 thousand to 367 thousand, quite an increase.

Of course this is all hypothetical. Sorry to sound so negative, but this kind of 'let's recognise partition as it stands, allow refugees restitution and walk away' solution is simply too unrealistic and would never be agreed upon by the majority of Cypriots. Partition just doesn't work for Cyprus without causing huge suffering to many Cypriots, this is why it was never seriously considerd by say the British back in the 1950s.

[bg_turk]

Of course this is all hypothetical. Sorry to sound so negative, but this kind of 'let's recognise partition as it stands, allow refugees restitution and walk away' solution is simply too unrealistic and would never be agreed upon by the majority of Cypriots. Partition just doesn't work for Cyprus without causing huge suffering to many Cypriots, this is why it was never seriously considerd by say the British back in the 1950s.

The reason why it will not be agreed is not because it will cause suffering, the reason why it will not agreed is because in direct conflict to the hellenic aspiration of greek nationalists.

To expect TCs become a minority in the RoC while GCs would never agree to be a minority in the TRNC is a double standard to say the least, and I hope you realize that by the same reasoning TCs can never be expected to become a minority in a greek dominated state.

PS: I do not know how you got the 55% ownerhip figure for GCs. They will own around 42%=1368/3224 according to the table, which is close to their 37% share of the populaton.

[Perastikos]

Greek Cypriots are the majority of the whole Cyprus and we have been so for 3500 years.

Before the achaioi (Greeks) comes they was only Cypriots.

Affter the Cypriots the mix with Assyrians after the Egyptians after the
Perses and mesopotamians and in the 1400 – 1200 bc the Acheoi .

For 2000 years at least the wasn’t any Greeks in Cyprus.

After the Achaious we’ve mixed again with Foinikes and Philistines.

After we’ve mixed with Frances Enetous Arvanites and Turks.

The invaders will sooner or later be thrown out of our country and legality, democracy and human rights will be restored. The ones that caused the suffering to the Cypriot people and went against the laws and the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus will be punished approprietly.

The invanders? Do you mean Achaious?

Meanwhile it would be very convenient for us if you allow Greek Cypriots to return to the illegally occupied Cyprus. It will help us to fight the foreign occupation from the inside, and liberate our country easier.

The Turkish occupation of Cyprus is an illegal occupation. And just like it was the case with similar occupations (Iraq of Kuwait, Nazis in WWII, Ottomans in Greece etc) the foreign invaders will sooner or later forced to leave from our island.

To Turks belongs Turkey, not our island. We are the Cypriots and Cyprus belongs to us.

Cyprus belongs to Cypriots that's right.

According to European laws the child of a Cypriot is Cypriot off course.

Sooner or later the demographics will change dramatically.

I don’t believe what a common accepted solution will be find. We are in the start of a nightmare.

The only solution I see is a confederation.

The confederation is much worst from any solution we have rejected until now.

But I hope what this confederation will come soon and maybe we pass this nightmare bloodless.

The confederation must be accepted of the stupid nationalists both sites because is the final division they wanted all this years.

[Piratis]

The reason why it will not be agreed is not because it will cause suffering, the reason why it will not agreed is because in direct conflict to the hellenic aspiration of greek nationalists.

Yes the same aspirations that caused the Greek revolution and the liberation of Greece from the Turkish oppression.

To expect TCs become a minority in the RoC while GCs would never agree to be a minority in the TRNC is a double standard to say the least, and I hope you realize that by the same reasoning TCs can never be expected to become a minority in a greek dominated state.

The TCs who are the 18% are a minority, nobody asked from them to become one. Nobody asked for the violation of their human, legal and democratic rights. The whole Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots, and TCs have no right to grab a part of Cyprus and call it "Turkish", when the majority of Cypriots, and that part in particular is Greek.

The "TRNC" is and will remain and illegal pseudo puppet state of Turkey until the occupied areas are liberated from the foreign invaders. This is because it was created illegally against the will of the Cypriot people. No Bulgarian or Turk criminal has the right to force on us anything on our own country. Cyprus belongs to Cypriots, and Cypriots alone will decide in a democratic way about the future of their own country.

In any case thanks for admitting that if Turks ruled the island or part of it, they would have never agreed not only to the things the ask from us now, but not even for the things that they have already such as Turkish as an official language.

I said many times that if Cyprus was 82% Turkish and 18% Greek, the whole Cyprus would be what Bg_Turk proposes. Even if it was independent and not part of Turkey (which I doubt) it would be called Turkish, they would not have Greek as an official language, and they would probably oppress Greek Cypriots like the do with the Kurds in Turkey. While bg_turk's argument is worthless in any other way, it is very useful to remind us of how we would be treated by the Turks if we were the minority.

[Perastikos]

(Iraq of Kuwait, Nazis in WWII, Ottomans in Greece etc)

You forget to mention Macedonians and religious criminals of Christianism over Greek and over the whole world and we can’t forget the Athenians in Mikines or the Greeks against Troyans …

[Piratis]

Before the achaioi (Greeks) comes they was only Cypriots.

Affter the Cypriots the mix with Assyrians after the Egyptians after the
Perses and mesopotamians and in the 1400 – 1200 bc the Acheoi .

For 2000 years at least the wasn’t any Greeks in Cyprus.

After the Achaious we’ve mixed again with Foinikes and Philistines.

After we’ve mixed with Frances Enetous Arvanites and Turks.

Sure, there was a lot of mixing. Still 2 facts remain:
1) The Greeks were not invaders. At around 1500 BC that the Greeks first came to Cyprus the island had just some 1000s of population and a lot of uninhabited land. The Greeks founded new cities they didn't invade and occupy the land of anybody else. The same goes for the Phoenicians. So calling the Greeks invaders is simply not the truth.
2) While there was a lot of mixing going on, the majority of the population on this island remained Greek. Why do you think we still talk Greek after 1000s of years of foreign invaders?

The fact remains that Cyprus belongs to Cypriots and nobody has the right to force Greek speaking Cypriots out of the land that their ancestors have inhabited for 1000s of years. The decisions about the whole Cyprus should be taken in a democratic way by all Cypriots as a whole.

[Piratis]

You forget to mention Macedonians and religious criminals of Christianism over Greek and over the whole world and we can’t forget the Athenians in Mikines or the Greeks against Troyans …

I didn't forget anything, I simply gave some examples.

I am the last one to claim that Greeks have been perfect in the past. Fact is that Turks have been a lot worst. But that wouldn't matter if it was just in the past. The problem is that Turkey continues to violate international law, legality and human rights TODAY as we speak.

By the way, I am not christian, I am atheist. Barbarian Christians and barbarian Turks are those that destroyed a lot of what the ancient Greek civilization has left us. The point though is to get better not get stuck in how you were in the middle ages. Will ever Turks be able to accept human rights and democracy? I guess they will have to accept it for their own country first before they will voluntarily accept it for ours.

[Perastikos]

Sure, there was a lot of mixing. Still 2 facts remain:
1) The Greeks were not invaders. At around 1500 BC that the Greeks first came to Cyprus the island had just some 1000s of population and a lot of uninhabited land. The Greeks founded new cities they didn't invade and occupy the land of anybody else. The same goes for the Phoenicians. So calling the Greeks invaders is simply not the truth.

Okay what ever you say.

But i guess what you remeber what Greece was invade in cyprus many times?

2) While there was a lot of mixing going on, the majority of the population on this island remained Greek. Why do you think we still talk Greek after 1000s of years of foreign invaders?

This is simply a stupid religion.

We can define who is Greek and who are not be just belive on it.

I was a stupid Ellinistis nationalist before some years but I realize what these things about nationality are stupid.

The agent Greeks said what Greeks or mallon Ellinas is them who speak Greek and them who participate in Greek culture and religion.

In Vizantio the Greeks-Ellines was the evil ethnikoi(12gods) and the word Ellinas was very bud.

So the stupidity about our Helenism is a myth.

We are the remains of Christianity and TC are the remains of musulim but also the Turks they can’t say what the come from Mogolia they have mixed with millions of greeks.

And by scientific researches they are to close to our DNA.

So basically we are the same.

The fact remains that Cyprus belongs to Cypriots and nobody has the right to force Greek speaking Cypriots out of the land that their ancestors have inhabited for 1000s of years. The decisions about the whole Cyprus should be taken in a democratic way by all Cypriots as a whole.

If you remain still in that big ideals (stupid for me) you will never realize the complexity of this problem and you will always invest in division.

We have our responsibilities so are they, but seems what we are not man enough to realize our part of responsibility of the complexity of this problem.

The Anan plan was giving pack the 1/3 of the land the 1/3 of the remains belongings and amends for the rest 2/3.

Is the first time in history what a war winner country gives back land.

That and many many more reason are make the Europeans to come against us.

We are basically stuck in our stupidity.

[bg_turk]

The reason why it will not be agreed is not because it will cause suffering, the reason why it will not agreed is because in direct conflict to the hellenic aspiration of greek nationalists.

Yes the same aspirations that caused the Greek revolution and the liberation of Greece from the Turkish oppression.

The turkish spirit is still strong and alive in TCs, and they will decisively confront any encroachment on their state, like their forefathers confronted the greek invadors of the turkish heartland.

If you belive that TCs will surrender their state, language and religion to your Hellenistic ideals, and follow the faith of Turks in Northern Greece you are more disillusional than I ever imagined.

The territorial integrity and soveregnity of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is inviolable, and it has no more political concessions to make.

The TRNC only has obligations towards the human rights of GCs who have been unfairly displaced, and I sincerely believe it will fulfil these obligations.

Once the human rights of these GCs are respected they will have no reason to rebel against the TRNC. The TRNC will be their own state, a shared home for all of its citizens.

[Piratis]

Stupidity is to accept partition with a name "United Cyprus" as it was the case with Annan plan.

The ideals of human rights and democracy can never be stupid. If people gave up on them because they were hard to be realized such ideals would not exist in the first place. Such things never come easy. Stupid are those that accept to be slaves and they give up on what is fair and just.