Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I am glad to hear you condemn the tyre slashing...However, I refuse to be drawn into your arguements for GC refugees;

So you do not condemn the illegalities and the violations of our human rights? How can you cry about mere tyre slashing when you support such major crimes against humanity?

[Tony-4497]

cypez

First, I condemn the actions of extremists on both sides - there have of course been cases where Grey Wolves carried out similar actions.

This, however, reminds me of another debate we had, where you seemed to believe there is zero or little chance of bloodshed if a complex power sharing agreement is put in place.

I believe that this event is nothing compared to what might happen if a plan is imposed which is deemed to be unfair by the GC population. If this happens (e.g. if people are somehow scared into accepting something similar to the Annan plan) the feeling of unfairness will certainly exist among the entire GC population. Combine this with the bloody past the likely daily problems due to the "constructive ambiguities" of the plan and struggles over power sharing (foreign/EU policy, sharing of funds, jobs etc etc) and you have an explosive environment where extremists in both sides will in my view be highly likely to cause a new bloodshed to start (it only takes a few..)

That is why any plan needs to be seen as FAIR and not the price paid for a lost war or being the weaker side, as you claimed. Such fairness can be derived by only 2 types of solution:

1. A unitary state where everyone goes back to their home etc etc
2. Two equal and separate states, based on a 82:18 land split ratio

Anything else will be unfair to GC and is bound to fail.

[cypezokyli]

tony.
i have told you many times up to now.
LEADERSHIP
how else am i going to say it to you? the way i view the world is kind of different from you. i believe that if the leadership really wants it can convince / coerce people to do what it wants.
according to politis today, while two goverment officials got "sick", diko and euroko did not condemn the acts.
ofcource when u ask them ofcource they would condem them, wouldnt they ?


people are lead. and if we really wanted that to end we could make it.
the questions is , do we?
do you want a bet that these guys will not get arrested ?

i brought you the example with hooliganism more than once up to now.
never did you reply.
never did you ever bother answering what creates such phenomena.
england had the worse experiences with hooliganism. now, their football pitches have no fence.
do you know whats that called?
goverment will.

a stupid example.
you destroy the wheels of somebody - 50 pounds fine
you destroy the wheels of somebody with political purposes - 5 years in prison
trust me, patriots dont have the balls to take the risk.
that ofcource assumes that we believe that such actions damage our cause , and we want to show it practically - not that such actions suit our cause bc it is obvious that its a justified anger



and as for the word "fair"...it is a very general one. bc our fair is different from the others "fair".
what is "fair" for us, is different for what "fair" for the tcs is, and different form what the UN things that "fair" is, and it is deifferent from what the EU things "fair" is.
no reason to try to convince me that our "fair" is fairer than all the rest. i know that already

[cypezokyli]

btw its not just ppolitis - the one we dont like
its also phil
http://www.phileleftheros.com/main/main ... ate=ACTIVE

[Tony-4497]

i believe that if the leadership really wants it can convince / coerce people to do what it wants

This attitude brings memories of dictatorships.. If a situation or solution is deemed fundamentally unfair by 82% of the population of a country, bloodshed WILL occur, regardless of leadership. After all, leaders are elected by the people and are there to represent their position and wishes (unless of course you also disagree with democracy, that is) - so if people feel the unfairness so will the leadership.

Your concern should be how to arrive at a solution that is viewed as fair by GCs and not how to "coerce" them into accepting one that is unfair (in Annan-plan-seller-blackmailer-style).

It is also quite rediculous to compare the Cyprus situation with English hooliganism. This latest action may have a taste of hooliganism, but the major issue here is the possibility of an entire population starting to fight for their human rights in case of an unfair solution and not a few idiots getting drunk at a football match and causing a bit of trouble.

As for the "subjectivity" of fairness -that's precisely why human beings have over the years developed the concept of law, including international and human rights law - so that geniuses like you or other Turkophiles don't get confused about what is "fair". If everyone thought like you, any country would be able to occupy a smaller one, keep it for 30 years and then just legalise this occupation.. coz fairness is a relative concept..

nice!

[Viewpoint]

So what you are saying is that no side should be forced to accept a solution? otherwise violence will erupt because of the feeling of an injust solution.

Then we have arrived Tony we have a situation where neither side wants any of the proposed plans and the likelihood of us neogtiating a plan that would address all our concerns and not feel as if it is being forced is below zero due to our Cypriot nature.

Then surely what we have is the best of the worst and the only way we can live peacefully on this island is as 2 good neighbours as I want the safety of my family above all and will not accept any solution that will put them in danger which is a solution forced upon either community.

[cypezokyli]

This attitude brings memories of dictatorships.. If a situation or solution is deemed fundamentally unfair by 82% of the population of a country, bloodshed WILL occur, regardless of leadership. After all, leaders are elected by the people and are there to represent their position and wishes (unless of course you also disagree with democracy, that is) - so if people feel the unfairness so will the leadership.

this attitude comes from :
1. Gustave le bon : the psycology of the masses
2. thoukidides description of perikles

you have every right to disagree. i cannot find any major event in history that it had no real leader to be honest.

It is also quite rediculous to compare the Cyprus situation with English hooliganism. This latest action may have a taste of hooliganism, but the major issue here is the possibility of an entire population starting to fight for their human rights in case of an unfair solution and not a few idiots getting drunk at a football match and causing a bit of trouble.

tony , what causes such phenomena ?
and what prevents them from happening?

As for the "subjectivity" of fairness -that's precisely why human beings have over the years developed the concept of law, including international and human rights law - so that geniuses like you or other Turkophiles don't get confused about what is "fair". If everyone thought like you, any country would be able to occupy a smaller one, keep it for 30 years and then just legalise this occupation.. coz fairness is a relative concept..

you have a very idealistic opinion about "the law".
laws represent the society.
thats why in some societies over the world, human beings treat women like animals, and it is still ok not to mention legal.

the only organisation that represents international law -which human beings have over the years developed - is.............
guess who?
the UN!!!!!!
is that a paradox?
u can say the EU, but lets not get into what advises those turkiphiles gave us. ...even those who used to support us.

its your right to believe in your "fairness" i dont challange that.
but your international law argument is kind of.... you know what i mean.

[Piratis]

cypezokyli, I think you are making a great effort to convince us that there is no hope in believing in human rights, equality of all citizens, legality, democracy etc.

If we don't have those beliefs then what do you want us to substitute them with?

Definitely we will not substitute them with the slave mentality that you have, because unlike you most people have dignity.

So if you are right and human rights, democracy etc can not be applied in the real world, then our only alternative is to work for the extermination of our enemies, getting rid of them like it happened in Crete and now they have peace and no problems.

This is the direction you want to push people?

I prefer to insist on human rights and democracy.

[cypezokyli]

piratis, i honestly dont see the link between what u wrote and my post. considering that we both are not running for elections, i would kindly ask you to be more specific.
i dont recall referring to human rights or democracy in the above posts. the topic was the disturbance of a bicomunal meeting, and what causes them, and your reply was my, often repeated lately, slave mentality (repeat it many times piratis. goebels already gave the instructions )

you came up with the conclusion that i dont respect human rights, democracy blablabla, and you are just going to repeat it in every post.

piratis, what causes the phenomena we experienced on the bicommunal meeting?
take a guess. a wild one.


btw, i want to be a slave of who?

[Tony-4497]

Then surely what we have is the best of the worst and the only way we can live peacefully on this island is as 2 good neighbours as I want the safety of my family above all and will not accept any solution that will put them in danger which is a solution forced upon either community.

This statement assumes that both communities are equally unhappy about the current situation. This is clearly not the case, as the 18% TC community holds by force 37% of Cyprus.

As I said above, the ideal solution would be a TRUE unification, where everyone goes home. If however the 2 good neighbours principle is the only realistic way forward, the TC area needs to be limited to 18% in order to achieve a fundamental degree of fairness i.e. the deal will be on the established principle of "land for sovereignty" - you will hand back half of what you stole by force in return for recognition of a sovereign state, EU entry etc etc.

Alternatively, you will continue to have a GC population waiting to get revenge and re-claim its areas at the earliest opportunity. This is recipe for further trouble - plus it means you remain isolated and Turkey stays outside the EU.