Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

but my approach is the only thing that will bring along the tc community to a unitary state eventually.

You might well be right. There is no certainty that a majority of TC could be convinced to support a move directly from current status quo to unitary Cypriot state. What I am certain of is that we have to failed so far in over 60 years to create a unitary Cypriot state where it does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are and it is nearly 50 years since the parameters of BBF were set as the basis for a settlement following 74 and yet here we still are. Spending say just 5-10 years trying to convince a majority of TC to support such a 'radical' (for them) solution seems to me worth a shot. Maybe that is my long standing ' change for change sake' mind set. I do not know. I have never understood the phrase 'better the devil you know than the one you dont' either to be honest. The devil I know, I know definitely beyond any doubt is a devil. The one I dont know may be worse, that is sure but there is also a chance, however small, that it is not actually a devil at all. I'll take the gamble pretty much every time. If it is worse, then Ill just go for another devil I dont know. Eventually one of them will turn out to not be a devil.

[Maximus]

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So I will try and make things as simple for you as I can.

I want a unitary Cyprus that aims for a 'destination' of a Cyprus where it no more matter if you are a TC or GC than it matters if you are a fat or thin Cypriot, or a ginger haired Cypriot. You want the same , at least you claim to. So lets give you the benefit of the doubt here and say you want the same.

In order to be able to move from where we are now to a unitary Cypriot state we need a majority of TC to support such.

Well done,

They do not and never did.

Nearly all GC's, did, do or will though.

That is the reason Cyprus cant move on. Its to do with their (TC community & Turkish) politics and mentality which IS discriminatory to the majority of Cypriots. And that is only possible in collusion with Turkey. Whether you like it or see it or not, the TC's at the moment and since time immemorial are a Turkish affiliate / puppet / whatever. It is one and the same thing.

Trying to invert the reality is like the pot trying to call the kettle black or psychological projection.

Having said that, you are on the right track if you sincerely want to change their mentality after changing your own. Or maybe it was something I said but it just took years to register with you....

But you have some nerve to write it, I tell you.

The reality is, the TC's as a community are looking for an apartheid (guaranteed and perpetuated by Turkey) to discriminate against the majority of Cypriots. On top of that, they want to keep what was stolen from others or unfairly compensate them. Or, they want to keep what was stolen and "share" everything else. That is why there is a Cy prob and we cant move on. What we have here is active discrimination against the majority.



its your community that has to change.........

Unfortunately, I dont have the time to respond to every point you try to make but I see a lot of it as unnecessary filler.

[Sotos]

Hello erolz, I will again not quote you on everything but on what I think is the main part of our disagreement:

Your approach following this seems to me to suffer the same problem than most economic theories suffer in relation to the idea of 'perfect rationality' of units (people). Life is more subtle and complex than such theories allow for and thus will always be limited in their use.

For me there can be no more 'perfect' a Cyprus than one where it really does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are. Thus all you scenarios that involve some form of differentiation based on kind of Cypriot, are by definition not 'perfect'.

There are 2 ways to see things: The idealist way, and the real world pragmatic way.

When you say "For me [an idealist position]" I can say "yes, I agree, that this is the ideal" but what I do not agree is that you can convince a majority of people to support an ideal that they believe goes against their interests. Some of them might even agree that what you say is right, but not support it. They might find an excuse as to why they do not support it (e.g. Lordo), or they might even be open about it and say "you are right, but I will still vote for what serves my interests" (like a relative of mine said to me a few years ago)

For the TCs the alternatives to a unitary RoC are BBF, and if that fails then partition. You rightly said that what is important are things like: peace, safety, free from discrimination, children's prospects, job prospects, education opportunities etc. The question is: How is unitary RoC better than BBF RoC in any of those for TCs? BBF RoC seems to give to TCs everything that unitary RoC gives + more power share + their own state in the north. So your argument is just not convincing, and I think your actual experience should prove to you that what I say corresponds with reality.

So I insist that for TCs to choose a unitary state it is not only how good RoC is, but also how good (for themselves) they believe that the alternative is. If they believe that BBF is possible and if that fails then they can have their own separate state (and most of them hope that this new state will be part of EU), then a unitary state is not an attractive option for them at all.

What I am suggesting however is that you can make a personal choice as to if you will 'engage' or not with him here on subjects like 'google phones in Cyprus' and other such non controversial subjects, as if he is just a 'normal' member here who is not constantly pushing fascist, racist and anti Semitic agendas.

In a topic like 'google phones in Cyprus' I am only talking about that specific issue. There have been members here who have been very racist not against Jews, but against us, supporting our ethnic cleansing and the stealing of our lands etc, and still in a topic like 'google phones in Cyprus' I would engage with them normally. This doesn't mean that I support their position in unrelated issues. Also, I personally do not agree with the position of some "progressives" that those who are perceived to be "extremists" should be silenced and pushed away.

[Sotos]

Nice of you to make an appearance Erol.

And likewise nice to see you post as well.

You always have positive things to contribute on the forum. I'd like to say Sotos has become a much better person in recent times. I remember referring to him as the village idiot and for that I'd like to unreservedly apologise now. I haven't got the time to look for his past posts but they were as I remember racist and anti TC to the extreme. I find this as a positive progress in TC GC relationship. Thank you Sotos.

I am always wary of judging people when all I know of them and them of me is online text based communication. I have been and remain of the view that forums like these , when used in conjunction with real world face to face interaction are always more useful and valuable than without it. I would happily welcome the chance to meet Sotos in person for example. I think there is much we would find common interest and even ground on. Having said that I have always found Sotos one of the contributors here I could rationally argue and discuss things in a civil manner despite many things we have disagreed about. I also sense (again with the caveat of not really ever having know him) a degree of 'journey' and 'progression' and 'change' from Sotos over the years that I think mirrors to a degree my own 'journey' and 'change over time'. Change is good, especially when the status quo is so not good. As a youngster in my early 20's I used to joke about setting up a political party (in the UK) with the slogan 'change for change's sake' It is those here, that over the 15 years or so I have been here, seemed to have not change one iota or to be willing or able to change that concern me more. You want change, then you need to change, yourself. It really is that simple (as well as complex) for me.

Seems like I missed the post from my friend MR-from-NG! Both me and him "reply in kind", so we ended up saying nasty things to each other on several occasions. Probably will happen again because we can't help it

Erolz, I already know we have several common interests, from the rational debates to technology related topics. That said, I choose to remain "anonymous" which is why I never met anybody from the forum in person. I think people can be more real online than when meeting them face to face. Yes, communication face to face can be better in that a lot of communication is not verbal and text on a screen isn't anywhere as expressive. But I think when face to face people are more "fake", in that they try to be polite and avoid conflict and as a result they don't often openly say exactly what they have in their mind.

And yes, my position on the Cyprus issue (and in general) has changed over the years. In my late teens, early twenties I was actually more hopeful and I believed that the problem in Cyprus is just with Turkey, that if TCs and GCs were to get together then we would soon realize that we can live in a united common country in peace. After the opening of the gates and the referendum my position started to shift. I felt that the Annan plan was very unfair and that the TCs were willingly partnering with Turkey in order to force something unfair on us for their own benefit. They didn't want to solve the Cyprus problem in a fair way, but they were looking for excuses to force something unfair on us. I felt that this was a very hostile position against us, it made me angry and I responded in kind with hostility.

In more recent years I come to realize that there is nothing particularly strange in the position of TCs. Most people care about their own interests, and they will find an excuse on the why. There might be altruistic individuals in any group, but no group of people is altruistic as a whole. So now I try to be pragmatic and not allow feelings and idealism to cloud my judgment (although that is not always possible).

[DT.]

End of the day everyone can understand the others motives and say they’d act the same themselves had they been in their position. tc’s hitching their wagon to Turkey cause...well lets face it they’d starve otherwise. The occupied area cannot sustain itself economically with the embargoed label on it if turkey doesn’t act as front end, middleman and back office for them and their trade. The GC’s on the other hand have taken every hand they’ve been dealt and played it out to its fullest capacity sometimes even beyond. The bonafideness (is that a word?) of the Republic of Cyprus and the fora it has allowed our elected donkeys to parade in has been the gc’s lifeline. Result is a series of agreements with everyone who has an issue with Turkey including the Americans right now to give the Republic of Cyprus its rightful place in the Centre of the universe with regards to gas monetization.

As long as these two paths are not aligned, if there’s no common enemy, if there’s no common treasure to exploit (gas doesn’t count for many reasons..1) Turkish invaded the north and spent 40 plus years telling everyone they’re an independent state in the north. Gas is in the south. 2) turkey lays claim to the common natural resources while it refuses to share the majority of the islands coastline. Is land not a natural resource? 3) fuck off we found it.) then these parallel universes will stay separate.

Still, unitary, bbf, partition or spaghetti zoning.....it’ll be really funny when after all these decades of negotiations and caveats the world sits back and watches the gc’s and tc’s mingle in locations where jobs exist. That’s the only shit that will count in the end, can I feed my family and where do I have to go to find work.

[Lordo]

xerodjehalo tell him the real reason why you don't type long.

1. you have 6 fingers on each hand which is very confusing which ones to use for which letters
2. you have webbed fingers whuch makes it doubly difficult to type one individual letter.
3. ise delya shillarosmenos.

tell poor swine your problems so he can understand your predicament. gavole

I would rather kick your ass, but you have to wash it first, because I cannot stand the odor.

rah xerodjehalobotho, en imboris na blinnis do golosou gavole dje i manasou blinnise vromizmene.

[Lordo]

End of the day everyone can understand the others motives and say they’d act the same themselves had they been in their position. tc’s hitching their wagon to Turkey cause...well lets face it they’d starve otherwise. The occupied area cannot sustain itself economically with the embargoed label on it if turkey doesn’t act as front end, middleman and back office for them and their trade. The GC’s on the other hand have taken every hand they’ve been dealt and played it out to its fullest capacity sometimes even beyond. The bonafideness (is that a word?) of the Republic of Cyprus and the fora it has allowed our elected donkeys to parade in has been the gc’s lifeline. Result is a series of agreements with everyone who has an issue with Turkey including the Americans right now to give the Republic of Cyprus its rightful place in the Centre of the universe with regards to gas monetization.

As long as these two paths are not aligned, if there’s no common enemy, if there’s no common treasure to exploit (gas doesn’t count for many reasons..1) Turkish invaded the north and spent 40 plus years telling everyone they’re an independent state in the north. Gas is in the south. 2) turkey lays claim to the common natural resources while it refuses to share the majority of the islands coastline. Is land not a natural resource? 3) fuck off we found it.) then these parallel universes will stay separate.

Still, unitary, bbf, partition or spaghetti zoning.....it’ll be really funny when after all these decades of negotiations and caveats the world sits back and watches the gc’s and tc’s mingle in locations where jobs exist. That’s the only shit that will count in the end, can I feed my family and where do I have to go to find work.

are you unemployed dt. we sent some food to cyprus recently and you can have it for free, are you aware of this

[erolz66]

You need to decide what it is you want Maximus.

If you vision is of a united Cyprus , one where it does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are, one where all Cypriots are treated equally, one where you accept and believe you have more commonality with me a TC than you do with someone from mainland Greece, then I will stand with, work with you, strive with you, struggle with you, take risks and oppose any force and power necessary to achieve this.

If however your vision is of a united Cyprus where TC are treated as second class citizens and where you can continue to place your Greekness ahead and above our common Cypriotness, one where you believe you have more in common with a person from mainland Greece than you do with me, a fellow Cypriot, then understand that such a vision is not one that is particularly attractive to me. You should also imo accept the reality that all attempts to date to create this kind of unitary Cyprus be it by means legal or illegal, by negotiation, by covert action or by force have failed and have played their part in getting us to where we are today.

So which is it you want Maximus ?