Sotos wrote:What you say is fine by me if you are asking for this for the TCs as a "safeguard" to agreeing to a solution. But if we are talking in general, about an "ideal democracy" in any country, then it gets more complicated. Why for example should the grouping be done just by ethnicity? There are many different ways to group people of a country. Maybe there is a situation where the majority wants something, but which is rejected by the 99% of homosexuals / men / people with disabilities / lower class / higher class etc. To say "nearly nobody in my group supports this decision, so it is illegitimate" I don't think it really stands from a legal point of view, and countries do not group their citizens in any way when they vote, apart from by location. So if there is an issue with the way that democracies function then the solution goes well beyond just ethnic groups and it is not just a Cyprus issue.
As I said I did not want to get bog down on this but the simple answer to your question is that no body has yet defined a 'people' on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, disability or class. The 'world' may yet move that way and faster than we might think but we are not there yet. There is a reason why the right to self determination is applied to 'peoples' (not nations, not states and not geographical areas - they are just shortcuts of convenience) and it is really not that hard to understand if you actually think, objectively, what the 'ideals' behind the right to self determination of 'peoples'.
https://www.diakonia.se/en/IHL/The-Law/ ... rmination/ are about This is not a simple subject and examples of where the 'ideal' has failed and led strife and violence and calamity are legion. We just need to decide do we want Cyprus to continue to be just one more example of this kind of failure or do we want to try and be a global exemplar and inspiration of how 'peoples' can find a way past the calamity to a better place and future.
In any case in a modern democratic progressive EU state, I think any time a minority 'group' any 'group' is 100 or 99% opposed to something, then it should be a big warning flag, if the majority support for whatever it is this group is opposed to is entirely from people outside that group.
Sotos wrote:I think you are over-reacting. Even best friends and family members can fight and say nasty things to each other. Obviously it would better if such things were never said, but considering the situation we are in it is the least of our problems. When the cause of those feelings cease to exist then behavior will change accordingly.
In places like this, the denigration of one kind of Cypriot by a different kind of Cypriot, for no reason other than they are from a different ethnic group, is the overriding reality. It has been the over ridding reality for the 15 years plus I have viewed this forum. We have to change this if we want wider change and that change starts with ourselves.
Sotos wrote:I disagree that interests and power share is something that only politicians are interested in. The people elect the politicians. People care about their interests above all else, and more power to the groups they belong means better means to serve those interests. When you say "what matters is how worse or better off we are in a given scenario", isn't this about interests? "Bad" is better than "Worst". "Good" isn't as good as "Even better". So for TCs is not just about how good/bad RoC is, but also how good/bad the alternative is.
No I think this is the 'trap' we have driven ourselves in to and what we have to break out of. What matters and what should matter to 'ordinary' people is can they live their lives in peace, in safety, free from discrimination. After that and in comparative terms, what should matter is what are my and my children's prospects in one scenario or the other. What are my job prospects, what are the education opportunities for me and mine, what 'rights' and 'responsibilities' will I have, not just in theory but in practice as well. We have and TC probably more than others become 'wedded' to 'truisms' that have been repeated so often with such force and regularity, than even after 50 years of failure we still remain unable to question them. Ideas like, on the part of TC, that we were, are and always must be 'communally' equal founders and partners in a Cypriot state. This is just one example and one from my side but there are countless other examples and these are the things I think we, as individuals, in full control and able to change ourselves, must strive to question and break down if we want to stop repeating the failures to date.
I think a compelling argument can be made that for an average TC and their families and future generations, living in a unitary Cypriot state as a minority, where they will be safe and free from discrimination and persecution just because they are of an ethnic minority, is the best option for them and better than any alternatives. How compelling the argument is is directly related to how credible it is that as a minority in a unitary Cypriot state we will not suffer unfair, unjust, ethnic based discrimination or that if we do there are enough Cypriots that will stand with us, simply as Cypriots, against such things.
Sotos wrote:So lets compare a theoretical "perfect RoC" with what TCs likely consider as the most possible alternatives:
Your approach following this seems to me to suffer the same problem than most economic theories suffer in relation to the idea of 'perfect rationality' of units (people). Life is more subtle and complex than such theories allow for and thus will always be limited in their use.
For me there can be no more 'perfect' a Cyprus than one where it really does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are. Thus all you scenarios that involve some form of differentiation based on kind of Cypriot, are by definition not 'perfect'.
Sotos wrote:
"Not tolerating" in what way? Am I supposed to respond to every one liner thrown by Kurupetos?
No I am, not suggesting you should respond to every 'one liner' from him. What I am suggesting however is that you can make a personal choice as to if you will 'engage' or not with him here on subjects like 'google phones in Cyprus' and other such non controversial subjects, as if he is just a 'normal' member here who is not constantly pushing fascist, racist and anti Semitic agendas. This is a choice you can make, entirely under your own control and I would suggest, with respect, that choosing to not engage with him on such things, to not 'normalise' his presence here is more compatible with wanting a modern democratic progressive Cypriot state. Be the change you want to see ?
Now do not get me wrong, I know many other Cypriots including members of my own family, that in 'private' and 'one to one' have expressed the most shocking racism and anti antisemitism and more often than not I just ignore it, especially when it is 'elder' members of my own family. However that for me is not that same as doing so with a total stranger on a forum like this, that is constantly pushing their racist, fascist agenda with their one liners.