erolz66 wrote:The point is under enosis, Cyprus would not exist as a nation and state and thus the very concept of a Cypriot nation - state is moot in such a scenario. Thus for GC today to maintain a narrative that
- all that is needed for the achievement of a modern and prosperous Cypriot nation that serves all Cypriots equally is for TC to reject partition, reject the need for any 'special' or 'atypical' constitutional communal protections or rights
- that the only reason TC do not just accept this, is because they are all greedy thieving barbarians
without any acknowledgement of that of the part played by GC historically not wanting even the existence of a Cypriot nation at all, let alone one that serves all Cypriots equally - that too me is just not compatible with the objective of trying to convince a majority of TC to chose to support such a solution.
Enosis is no longer a relevant issue. I already agreed that I perfectly understand why TCs didn't want enosis and why they fought against it when they were given a chance. If I was a TC I would have done the same. That said, Cyprus being "independent" is not my top priority. If we freely choose to be part of something greater because this would serve our interests better and protect us from external threats then I think this is fine. Enosis is dead, but maybe in the future EU could evolve into a country, akin to the USA. I want the option for us to freely and democratically decide if we will be part of this or not, and both choices would be equally valid.
erolz66 wrote:What you say and do is the only thing that matters, in the sense that it is something that you have direct absolute control over. Say to me today that, given the history of Cyprus, you understand and accept my concerns as a TC that I might be unfairly discriminated against in a unitary Cypriot state, simple because I am TC and not GC and then go on to explain why, understanding that, you still believe that such a unitary state is the best way forward for all of us, then we have a chance. However say to me the only solution is for me to stop being a barbarian thieving Turk and accept living in a unitary Cyprus where I will be seen and treated as such or fuck of back to Turkey, then what way forward is there other than partition ?
Things like "Barbarian Turk" and "fuck off back to Turkey" are just part of a "verbal fight" that are used to intentionally offend or as a response to an offence. Beyond that, I understand your concerns, but I think issues in the present (which you talk about later) are far more important than a selective use of history. This is not to say that history is not relevant, but things change, and if we will be using history then we should look all sides of it objectively.
erolz66 wrote:Here I disagree fundamentally. Trying to 'force' acceptance of a unitary state solution on the TC community simply by making things as 'uncomfortable' as possible for them if they do not, does not work, has not worked and will not work. We know this or should by now.
I didn't say "force acceptance of a unitary state" on the contrary I said that we can't have a single country for all of us without agreement. Some people hope that one day we will have the power to liberate the north militarily. The chances of that happening are very little, but even if it was possible I am now against this. Forcing TCs something they are against will mean a constant strife and problems. Just like "independence" is not my top priority, having Cyprus whole again, while very desirable, is not my top priority either. My top priority is for my country to be a prosperous, democratic, peaceful place where the human rights of all people are respected.
What I did say is that we should offer to TCs options, including (1) A BBF with the most we are willing to give (if the most we can give is not enough for TCs, then that option is dead) (2) Return to what was agreed in 1959 with only minor changes to bring it up to date (if we can't agree on something new, then what is already agreed should be an option to fall back to), (3) Partition with an 18% - 82% split (if we can't have a country together, this is the most fair (or least unfair) way to do it). Then we should put pressure on the TCs to choose one of the options. None of those options are ideal for us and TCs should realize that they too will need to compromise because this problem can't go on forever.
erolz66 wrote: I simply do not believe that the RoC says I am entitled to a RoC passport is down to any reason other than it is a requirement of being able to maintain and sustain it's recognition as the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots.
OK, say your application went smoothly and there was no discrimination against you. Wouldn't you say: "they did it because they were required to do so"? You shouldn't compare how you are treated now with how you would be treated in a united Cyprus. Now we are essentially in the cease fire or a war. As a result of the war you got way more territory than what proportionally belongs to you, but we maintained the only recognized government. Isn't it also and even more so unfair that e.g. the people of Famagusta can see their town but they can't return to it. The RoC has done a lot for TCs, but RoCs goodwill is nor appreciated. Say for example you take your car and you come to the south to e.g. apply for passport, or go to a hospital which many TCs are entitled to. Your car was probably not imported legally in Cyprus, it didn't pass proper MOT inspection etc. Just by applying the law RoC could make it much more difficult for you. And then of course they could do to all TCs what they did to you and make it practically very difficult for anybody to get IDs, passports and everything else you are entitled.
erolz66 wrote:I believe the best route, possibly the only route, to convincing a majority of TC that the best future for them and their children is within a unitary Cypriot state without any special communal protections is to simply create a Cyprus that is so compelling 'better' or is clearly striving to be 'better' than not just the north or Turkey but any where in the world. Again this is not something that needs to be done by 'government' or the 'state' but is and can be down to individuals and the choices they have total control over. If since 74 the RoC had evolved in to a world example of it's fair treatment of immigrants and refugees and foreigners generally, a bastion of progressive policies on things like LGBT rights and equal rights for women a world leader in fighting against political corruption and nepotism and a world leader in the fight against police corruption or abuse, then the chances that a majority of TC would support a solution and future based on a unitary Cypriot state without any communal protections would be almost certain in my view.
This is why for me my hope for the future is not with groups like 'unite Cyprus now' (wedded as they currently are to the dead end of a BBF based solution) but actually in groups like Accept and KISA in the south (and their equivalents in the North as far as such exist at all in the north) despite them seemingly being nothing to do with the Cyprus issue directly. We need to create a Cyprus that TC , or at least a majority of them, WANT to be part of more than any other options. There is no route to a unitary solution without protections by trying to 'force' them to accept such by making the other options so onerous that even living in a unitary Cyprus as a second class Cypriot that faces habitual discrimination is better.
Personally I fully support the cause of Accept, KISA etc because I believe in human rights irrespective of the Cyprus problem. That said I don't think the views of the majority of TCs on the Cyprus problem is related to that. It is more about interests and power share, than anything else. Just look at how crappy Turkey is in its treatment of minorities and yet TCs don't seem to have any problem with that because they believe that Turkey serves their interests (and just to be clear I am not saying that is ONLY the TCs that only care about their own interests). But what you say is very valid for the small minority among TCs that want a truly united Cyprus. In that case I fully agree that if we don't respect the rights of weak minorities which have never harmed anybody, then we can't demand that our human rights be respected by others and we can't expect from TCs to trust us in a unitary state without special protections.
It is all well and fine talking about a (unitary) modern European Cypriot state that serves all Cypriots equally regardless of what kind of Cypriot they be and certainly easier to talk about such than ask how compatible my actions, my choices, my views, that I have total and absolute control over are with such an ideal. Again for me this forum is an example of how far from the 'reality' of such a state we are in practice. Take kurupetos for example. He is a blatant neo nazi racist. Yet he is treated here with at best indifference and at worst with bonhomie, almost never challenged when posting his neo nazi propaganda and often not just tolerated but even supported or excused by others simply because he is a GC neo nazi racist and not a TC one. This is not 'normal'. This is not compatible with the idea or notion of a modern unitary Cypriot state that treats all Cypriots fairly and equally and is something that is under the total control of those who contribute here. The day that he is called out for his extremist views, by a majority of Cypriot posters here across the ethnic divide of GC and TC as systematically as he posts his propaganda here is the day my belief that I would not face discrimination in a unitary Cypriot state without the need for any communal protections will increase massively. I am not holding my breath.
Kurupetos usually just throws one liners. I don't think he ever spent more than 1 minute writing a post and usually he is just trolling somebody. If he would spent more than a minute to write a post with actual arguments about why "Jews are evil" or explain his beliefs about gays etc, then I would respond if I saw his post and I found it at least slightly challenging.