Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

Also, you insist equating union with Greece with British rule. It is totally different when foreign rule is imposed on a territory and when the population of that territory democratically chooses to join others. Gibraltar, Falklands and Scotland are all willingly part of the UK. The population of those territories, one person one vote regardless of ethnic background, choose to be part of UK. In Scotland nearly 50% of the people believe that choice was wrong, and it might be, but they still respect the result.

The point is under enosis, Cyprus would not exist as a nation and state and thus the very concept of a Cypriot nation - state is moot in such a scenario. Thus for GC today to maintain a narrative that

- all that is needed for the achievement of a modern and prosperous Cypriot nation that serves all Cypriots equally is for TC to reject partition, reject the need for any 'special' or 'atypical' constitutional communal protections or rights
- that the only reason TC do not just accept this, is because they are all greedy thieving barbarians

without any acknowledgement of that of the part played by GC historically not wanting even the existence of a Cypriot nation at all, let alone one that serves all Cypriots equally - that too me is just not compatible with the objective of trying to convince a majority of TC to chose to support such a solution.

By that I don't mean we don't have share of responsibility as well. It is true that lots of GCs looked down on TCs in those times and it is perfectly reasonable for the TCs not to want union with Greece, so we made it very easy for the British to apply their divide and rule practices. And after 1960 we could have done a lot better in managing the crappy constitution that we were given.

Just that you, as a GC, can 'admit' the above is a 'positive' in terms of helping me as a TC believe, and convince other TC to believe, that in a future unitary Cypriot nation, I will not be unfairly discriminated against for no other reason that I am TC and not GC. It is a positive in exactly the same way as being told 'I am not a Cypriot, I am a Turk' is a negative, being told that 'I want partition because it enables me to steal what is not rightfully mine and as a Turk this is all I know' is a negative and countless other 'narratives' that are dominant, not just here but in the wider GC community in general.

And I don't think what we say matters much for TCs anyways.

What you say and do is the only thing that matters, in the sense that it is something that you have direct absolute control over. Say to me today that, given the history of Cyprus, you understand and accept my concerns as a TC that I might be unfairly discriminated against in a unitary Cypriot state, simple because I am TC and not GC and then go on to explain why, understanding that, you still believe that such a unitary state is the best way forward for all of us, then we have a chance. However say to me the only solution is for me to stop being a barbarian thieving Turk and accept living in a unitary Cyprus where I will be seen and treated as such or fuck of back to Turkey, then what way forward is there other than partition ?

The mistake of our side is giving to the TCs false hopes that the solution they want (which is essentially partition within EU + natural gas share) is just around the corner. Giving RoC IDs to TCs and the "Confidence Building Measures" only help to make the status quo more comfortable for the TCs, so they feel no pressure to compromise. As a result a solution is not found and Turkey is meanwhile swallowing the north.

Here I disagree fundamentally. Trying to 'force' acceptance of a unitary state solution on the TC community simply by making things as 'uncomfortable' as possible for them if they do not, does not work, has not worked and will not work. We know this or should by now.

At the moment the behaviour of the RoC is to my view the worst of all worlds. For example if the idea behind the RoC giving me a RoC passport is to help me as a TC believe that in a unitary Cyprus I will not be discriminated against, then the current policy is an abject failure. I simply do not believe that the RoC says I am entitled to a RoC passport is down to any reason other than it is a requirement of being able to maintain and sustain it's recognition as the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots. What is more rather than it being an example of how 'fairly' the RoC government might treat me in a unitary Cypriot state, with no abnormal communal protections, it is in fact exactly the opposite. It is in fact an example of exactly how, even in the 'modern EU member Cypriot state' I can and will be discriminated against for no other reason that I am TC and not GC, despite what the law says, despite all the supposed protections against such discrimination, nationally or EU wise. I know this as a fact , personally experienced. The simple fact is a GC born of a single (greek) Cypriot parent not themselves born in Cyprus can and do get RoC passports, as the law and constitution of Cyprus says they are entitled to, with an ease that is just not the same for me as the son of a TC parent and British mother who was not born in Cyprus. The passports thing then is not an example of how fairly I am treated as an equal Cypriot by the RoC. It is in fact an example of how the RoC can and does discriminate against me as a Cypriot, for no other reason than I am TC and not GC and despite what the constitution actually says, what the law actually says and despite Cyprus being a 'modern European' state. Just to give an example I know personally two brothers of the same status as me, that both have sought the RoC passports they are legally entitled to under RoC constitution and law. One lives in the UK and one lives in Cyprus. The UK one went to the RoC high commission in London to apply and was told he must apply in Cyprus. The one that lives in Cyprus went to the relevant RoC office to apply and was told that as a UK passport holder they had to apply via the high commission in London. Their applications are both still 'pending' for well over a year now and having jumped through countless hoops and requirements, none of which are placed on a GC of similar status.

The blatant discrimination shown by the RoC in practice on this issue is well know , well document and has been reported in places like the Cyprus Mail. Now the behaviour of the RoC government in allowing this to continue is bad enough but what undermines my ability to believe (and convince other TC to believe) that in a unitary Cypriot state I will not be discriminated against even more than the behaviour of the state, is the behaviour of many GC in response to such. Just dig out the Cyprus Mail article about this issue and then look at the comments section following it. Sure there is a small number of GC (who here would be calle Banniots) who condemn this discrimination on the part of RoC government unreservedly but they are a small minority. The majority of GC res-ponders take the line that such discrimination is justified, regardless of what the law actually says and states, because TC - here you can fill in any number of things - supported invasion, are invaders, are thieving scum, do not offer TRNC passports to GC or any number of other excuses.

This then is my point about if you want change and about starting with oneself and challenging and changing oneself. If as a GC you claim to want a solution based on a unitary Cypriot state, yet your instinctive reaction to examples of such state discrimination against TC by the RoC , is yeah well but they do not really deserve, as TC, such passports anyway, then I say you really need to look to yourself first. You have total and absolute control over if you chose to be in the minority that condemns such behaviours unreservedly or the majority that simply seeks to excuse them one way or another and which you chose has a direct correlation as to how easy or difficult it is for a TC to believe and try and convince other TC to believe that they will not be discriminated against in a unitary Cypriot state with no special communal protections. If you really want change and really want a unitary Cypriot state where it genuinely does not matter what kind of Cypriot you may be, then challenging yourself and if necessary changing your views on issues like these is the place to start, not just saying it is all down to TC having to change, which they will not do because they are Turks and only know how to steal and thieve and care nothing for democracy blah blah blah.

I think our side, which is the majority of Cypriots, should .....

I believe the best route, possibly the only route, to convincing a majority of TC that the best future for them and their children is within a unitary Cypriot state without any special communal protections is to simply create a Cyprus that is so compelling 'better' or is clearly striving to be 'better' than not just the north or Turkey but any where in the world. Again this is not something that needs to be done by 'government' or the 'state' but is and can be down to individuals and the choices they have total control over. If since 74 the RoC had evolved in to a world example of it's fair treatment of immigrants and refugees and foreigners generally, a bastion of progressive policies on things like LGBT rights and equal rights for women a world leader in fighting against political corruption and nepotism and a world leader in the fight against police corruption or abuse, then the chances that a majority of TC would support a solution and future based on a unitary Cypriot state without any communal protections would be almost certain in my view.

This is why for me my hope for the future is not with groups like 'unite Cyprus now' (wedded as they currently are to the dead end of a BBF based solution) but actually in groups like Accept and KISA in the south (and their equivalents in the North as far as such exist at all in the north) despite them seemingly being nothing to do with the Cyprus issue directly. We need to create a Cyprus that TC , or at least a majority of them, WANT to be part of more than any other options. There is no route to a unitary solution without protections by trying to 'force' them to accept such by making the other options so onerous that even living in a unitary Cyprus as a second class Cypriot that faces habitual discrimination is better.

It is all well and fine talking about a (unitary) modern European Cypriot state that serves all Cypriots equally regardless of what kind of Cypriot they be and certainly easier to talk about such than ask how compatible my actions, my choices, my views, that I have total and absolute control over are with such an ideal. Again for me this forum is an example of how far from the 'reality' of such a state we are in practice. Take kurupetos for example. He is a blatant neo nazi racist. Yet he is treated here with at best indifference and at worst with bonhomie, almost never challenged when posting his neo nazi propaganda and often not just tolerated but even supported or excused by others simply because he is a GC neo nazi racist and not a TC one. This is not 'normal'. This is not compatible with the idea or notion of a modern unitary Cypriot state that treats all Cypriots fairly and equally and is something that is under the total control of those who contribute here. The day that he is called out for his extremist views, by a majority of Cypriot posters here across the ethnic divide of GC and TC as systematically as he posts his propaganda here is the day my belief that I would not face discrimination in a unitary Cypriot state without the need for any communal protections will increase massively. I am not holding my breath.

[repulsewarrior]

...in any case, with the negotiations as they are framed, Cyprus is not the focus. Cypriots have effectively been excluded from the debate, mostly focused on "Greekness", and "Turkishness". What is obvious is that Greeks and Turks are better off, in Cyprus, as Cypriots.

Indeed, a Unitary State makes most sense, because Cyprus is small, even by population. A BBF is a compromise because it is more costly. It is the issue of defining ourselves as Persons, rather than Individuals (first), that has led to this impasse in affect. This "thing" i do, is to make clear that i do not define a Turk, a "Turk" so quickly, just because they are Turkish. I am Greek, i am no "Greek".

...indeed, it was the Occupation Movement which inspired my continued plea to all Cypriots that they can fly this Flag with pride, as Cypriots. Indeed i salute Cypriots like Koray Basogrultmacı and Cinel Senem Husseyin who feel the same way as the thousands of children, from all across Cyprus, who sent this Flag to the Buffer Zone. This is their Flag, not a rag, as those "Greek", and "Turkish", expect "others" to agree.

The Problem therefore is not one of "Greeks" vs "Turks", nor is it a question of Greeks/"Greeks" vs Turks/"Turks",
...but a question of Greeks/Turks vs "Greeks"/"Turks".

...and now a MEP has been elected, who (claims he) will represent Cypriots as Cypriots who is neither "Greek", or Greek.

(nice post erolz)

...i ask what of the Communal Chamber? Why is it ignored by both communities and it's History not debated? What of a return to the original Constitution so that as Communities, their needs can be discussed between one another, while in the Legislature, Cypriots represent themselves as Cypriots, as Cypriots Sovereign in their affairs? How else can Cypriots meet as Cypriots, to exploit their diversity internationally speaking, and to find in sustaining their ethnography a mutual interest. What is wrong with reform? If in the context of the Republic, Cypriots change themselves? What would be more "perfect", finding a solution, as such (rather than a "new" Cyprus)?

...i would be happy if at least Anastasiades withdrew from the negotiations, so too Mr. Akinci, so that they may focus their efforts on a dialog with their respective electorate on the benefit of "being" Cypriot, preparing them, and themselves for the reforms they must make toward that end. Then in the present negotiation as Constituencies at that point they may arrive at a point where they agree; knowing that such agreement must pass another Legislative hurdle, having to be acceptable to Cypriots as Cypriots, one would expect they will not negotiate from extremes.

[erolz66]

In fact Cyprus, the roc, is already that.

Well it is certainly easier to simply state this as some kind of fact and believe such to be true than having to bother questioning yourself as to what degree it really is true or to consider your own actions and beliefs in light of 'how compatible or not is my view or position or action on this or that issue with that of a Cypriot nation that is genuinely blind to if you are a TC or GC'.

Your ability to change me , or any other TC, is from near to zero to zero. Your ability to change yourself is unlimited. If you want to challenge yourself, trying searching the forum for post where you have responded to or engaged with or mentioned kurupetos. To what degree have you chosen to challenge his racism regardless of if he is a TC racist or a GC one vs the degree to which you have joked and engaged with him without any acknowledgement of his rabid racism and specific TC hatred. Try considering how compatible such historic responses on your part really are or are not with the idea of the RoC being a modern democratic european state that does not discriminate against anyone based on creed, colour or religious belief.

If you want change but are not prepared to challenge and change yourself first, but can in fact only talk about what 'others' must change, then you are almost certainly not going to be able to achieve the change you want.

[B25]

In fact Cyprus, the roc, is already that.

Well it is certainly easier to simply state this as some kind of fact and believe such to be true than having to bother questioning yourself as to what degree it really is true or to consider your own actions and beliefs in light of 'how compatible or not is my view or position or action on this or that issue with that of a Cypriot nation that is genuinely blind to if you are a TC or GC'.

Your ability to change me , or any other TC, is from near to zero to zero. Your ability to change yourself is unlimited. If you want to challenge yourself, trying searching the forum for post where you have responded to or engaged with or mentioned kurupetos. To what degree have you chosen to challenge his racism regardless of if he is a TC racist or a GC one vs the degree to which you have joked and engaged with him without any acknowledgement of his rabid racism and specific TC hatred. Try considering how compatible such historic responses on your part really are or are not with the idea of the RoC being a modern democratic european state that does not discriminate against anyone based on creed, colour or religious belief.

If you want change but are not prepared to challenge and change yourself first, but can in fact only talk about what 'others' must change, then you are almost certainly not going to be able to achieve the change you want.

Elroz, you need to preach your shit to your own TCs not us. Just check the TCs comments on the shit ail. MrH is a wonderful example and your very own Lordo here is another.

No matter how you use your gobbledegook BS expressing, of 'this' or 'that' or 'others' what a crock of shit.

Bottom line is you MFs still illegally occupy our lands, still have 100,000sof Turkish gypsies here, 70k troops and use and abuse the good nature of the RoC for ll the benefits you obtain. You are just lucky we have a spineless, coward bunch of wankers in Government , otherwise you would be out on your ass.

You may fool Sotos or Maximus, but I see straight through you and your manipulating posts. Instead of asking Maxi to look through old posts, you should look at the old posts of your very own countrymen , Zan, MtH, MrFrog, Birkturk and others. People in glass houses should throw stones. Hade assirktir.

[Maximus]

In fact Cyprus, the roc, is already that.

Well it is certainly easier to simply state this as some kind of fact and believe such to be true than having to bother questioning yourself as to what degree it really is true or to consider your own actions and beliefs in light of 'how compatible or not is my view or position or action on this or that issue with that of a Cypriot nation that is genuinely blind to if you are a TC or GC'.

Your ability to change me , or any other TC, is from near to zero to zero. Your ability to change yourself is unlimited. If you want to challenge yourself, trying searching the forum for post where you have responded to or engaged with or mentioned kurupetos. To what degree have you chosen to challenge his racism regardless of if he is a TC racist or a GC one vs the degree to which you have joked and engaged with him without any acknowledgement of his rabid racism and specific TC hatred. Try considering how compatible such historic responses on your part really are or are not with the idea of the RoC being a modern democratic european state that does not discriminate against anyone based on creed, colour or religious belief.

If you want change but are not prepared to challenge and change yourself first, but can in fact only talk about what 'others' must change, then you are almost certainly not going to be able to achieve the change you want.

Elroz, you need to preach your shit to your own TCs not us. Just check the TCs comments on the shit ail. MrH is a wonderful example and your very own Lordo here is another.

No matter how you use your gobbledegook BS expressing, of 'this' or 'that' or 'others' what a crock of shit.

Bottom line is you MFs still illegally occupy our lands, still have 100,000sof Turkish gypsies here, 70k troops and use and abuse the good nature of the RoC for ll the benefits you obtain. You are just lucky we have a spineless, coward bunch of wankers in Government , otherwise you would be out on your ass.

You may fool Sotos or Maximus, but I see straight through you and your manipulating posts. Instead of asking Maxi to look through old posts, you should look at the old posts of your very own countrymen , Zan, MtH, MrFrog, Birkturk and others. People in glass houses should throw stones. Hade assirktir.

It doesn’t fool me, He has gone too far with his preaching and mantra,s.

Time to take his own medicine. He should be preaching this to his own choir.

Unfortunately, it is not limited to a few posters on the forum,

The reality is, Cyprus is illegally occupied and the tc,s politics towards gc,s is a text book definition of fascism. It’s his side that argues against democracy, human rights, eu principles returning expropriated property etc......during the official negotiations.

The irony in his posts exists if he honestly looks.

His side has to change to reintegrate themselves in the roc.

[erolz66]

QED

[erolz66]

You are just lucky we have a spineless, coward bunch of wankers in Government , otherwise you would be out on your ass.

Just luck is it that has led to GC voting in cowardly spineless wankers every single time since 1974 ? Yet another thing to deny any communal responsibility for I guess ? I suppose I should be thankful you do not blame TC and Turkey for your failure to vote in anything but spineless cowardly wankers in to power for over 50 years. Still 'luck' is always a useful alternative for placing blame anywhere than with yourselves I guess, when even you can not find a way to place it on TC and Turks.

Would you want TC to chose to support a solution based on a unitary Cyprus without any communal exceptions or not B25 ? Or do you just want a solution based on 'TC being out on their asses' and nothing else ? Cause to me it is hard to not think the later is the more likely.

[Maximus]

Not sure what you are trying to do erolz but it smells of manipulation and hypocrisy

you have potentially gone from hero to zero in about 3 posts.

Your motto was - be the change you want to see in the world,

And you ended up with - let everyone else change so I can see the difference.

How are you or how is your side going to change or what do they have to change to realize this unitary democratic state enrolz?

[erolz66]

Your motto was - be the change you want to see in the world,

My motto is, be the change you want to see, absolutely. I have lived this many times in my life and I know the effectiveness of it as well as the 'effort' it requires.

And you ended up with, let everyone else change so I can see the difference.

No I am suggesting 'you' actually try it rather than just find excuses as to why it does not apply to you or in this situation. I do so because it is the only way I know of that we can get from where we are today to where many seem to 'claim' to want to be.

How are you or how is your side going to change or what do they have to change to realize this unitary democratic state enrolz?

What I need to do, what all of us need to do, on any side and from any community, if we are serious about wanting change is to first look inwards before outwards. It is not complicated really. I do my best. You seem to be denying any need for anyone to do so other than TC ? Or have I got you wrong ?

[Maximus]

You are still not answering the question, try and be specific.

what do you or what does your side have to change to realize this democratic unitary state?

Then, you can give your opinion on;

What do the gc,s and the roc have to change, considering their position has always been a democratic unitary state since makarios’s proposed the 13 amendments?

Put aside the bbf, that is a gc concession to help facilitate a solution. The preferred outcome would be a unitary democratic state. This seems to be what you want now too.