Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...makes me wonder what the population really is in the occupied territories; 80,000 were eligible to vote. Is it 230,000?

Does that mean that there are only forty or fifty thousand there illegally? I have always imagined the number to be more.

rw what is the matter with you. the whole population cannot vote. there is 85,000 tcs registered in the south that can vote. these tcs have both their parents as tcs.

there is at least haf as much which only have one parent which groc is refusing to accept. what is there to get confused about fgs.

...i think you are confused.

perhaps and perhaps not. lets break it down shall we.

1. there are 85,000 tcs registered in groc and able to vote.
2, there is at least 40,000 who groc refuses to register on someexcuse ot other.
3. sum them up and it makes 125,000
4, there is at least another 25,000 who refuses to apply for groc citizenship. now that makes it 150,000.
5. that leaves 150,000 settlers which when summed up makes the 300,000 that came out of the census done recently.

are you still confused?

...there were, in the occupied territories about 80,000 eligible voters; are there another 85,000 that live in the Republic proper?

[Lordo]

...makes me wonder what the population really is in the occupied territories; 80,000 were eligible to vote. Is it 230,000?

Does that mean that there are only forty or fifty thousand there illegally? I have always imagined the number to be more.

rw what is the matter with you. the whole population cannot vote. there is 85,000 tcs registered in the south that can vote. these tcs have both their parents as tcs.

there is at least haf as much which only have one parent which groc is refusing to accept. what is there to get confused about fgs.

...i think you are confused.

perhaps and perhaps not. lets break it down shall we.

1. there are 85,000 tcs registered in groc and able to vote.
2, there is at least 40,000 who groc refuses to register on someexcuse ot other.
3. sum them up and it makes 125,000
4, there is at least another 25,000 who refuses to apply for groc citizenship. now that makes it 150,000.
5. that leaves 150,000 settlers which when summed up makes the 300,000 that came out of the census done recently.

are you still confused?

...there were, in the occupied territories about 80,000 eligible voters; are there another 85,000 that live in the Republic proper?

nope.

there are 40 0dd thousand living in the north who groc refuses to register on account that one parent is terggish from tergggy and there is another 25 thousand who refuse to do anything to do with groc. the rest of the population of anout 150,000 are people who were born in cyprus to terggish paresnt that ariived in 1974 and are now third generation settler cypriots which groc does not recognise.

are you still confused?

[repulsewarrior]

...and what about the children, i see no mention of them at all, are you only counting voters, as in, of voting age?

[erolz66]

You have to be really stupid to think the constitution imposed on the people of Cyprus by the Brits in 1960 was anything but an anachronism designed to sow discord. You have to be really stupid to not learn anything from history and try to negotiate it back as a solution.

How 'smart' or 'honest' do you need to be in order to accept the simple truth that had the 'world powers' not 'imposed' such a constitution on Cyprus and Cypriots in 1960, then today Cyprus would not exist as a nation, as a state and there would today be no route to the creation of a true Cypriot nation-state ?

Was Cyprus' potential to become a 'progressive and prosperous country' destroyed and undermined by an 'imposed flawed constitution' or was a 'flawed constitution' imposed on Cyprus because the world powers did not support Cyprus becoming a provincial outpost of the Greek nation and state ?

I am sorry but for me this 'narrative' that Cyprus, as an independent nation, was ruined by an imposed flawed constitution appears to be little more than an attempt to blame others for mistakes we made (an all to common Cypriot trait imo). It is for me an example of the very thing you lament about above - not learning from history. If you can not be honest about history then you can not learn from it. How can 'you' learn from history when you seem to be unable to accept the role that the pursuit of trying to replace British rule from London of Cyprus with Greek rule from Athens played ?

There were reasons why the 60's constitution was so 'abnormal' and the pursuit of enosis rather than independence were at the core of those reasons just as the pursuit of the division of Cyprus were as well.

All because a group of ignorant people want a banana republic style system of governance that would violate theirs and other peoples rights.

See what I mean ? We are not where we are today because "a group of ignorant people want a banana republic style system of governance that would violate theirs and other peoples rights". We are where we are today because a majority of GC sought to replace rule of Cyprus from and by London with rule of Cyprus from and by Athens and a majority of TC sought to resist this and because in the name of these opposing desires Cypriot was willing to kill and murder Cypriot. If we can not accept this historic reality how can we learn from the past to create a better future ?

...indeed, when a majority is evenly split, it is the minority that wields decisive power.

... and when an ethic majority is united in a desire for something that is defined by that ethnicity alone what happens ? What power does an ethnic minority have in such a scenario ? This is, given our history, the conundrum we as Cypriots must tackle if we are to have any chance of creating a 'normal' unitary Cypriot nation-state. Ignoring the historic reality can not lead to a better future. Believing that we are where we are today is simply the result of the actions and power of 'others' , be that Cypriot 'others' or be it non Cypriot 'others', can not lead to a better future. Believing that 'other' Cypriots are the cause of our situation because they are 'ethnically' more greedy, more anti democratic, more thieving than ourselves can not lead to a better future either.

Anyway enough of the past, lets talk about the present and the future.

I want a unitary Cyprus. I used to think that a solution based on BBF could be a stage to that ultimate destination but I no longer believe this. That it was closer to the goal than where we are today. I no longer believe this. I do now believe that whilst it is a road that appears to head in the right direction it is a 'dead end' road that whilst it takes us closer to the goal than where we are today there is no route past that dead end. I do now believe what we need to achieve is finding a way of going from where we are today directly to a 'normal' unitary Cypriot state. The only way this could happen is for a majority of TC to chose such a future. I today will and do argue this 'position' with my fellow TC.

In this regard I think I am on the 'same page' as the likes of Sotos and Max. Where I differ I suspect is in how this could be achieved.

I believe the cliche that if you want to change the world, such change has to start with yourself. That any time someone is seeking and advocating 'change' with a narrative that it is 'others' that need to change and not themselves, then they are almost certainly doomed to fail. My ability to change others ranges from next to zero to 0. My ability to change myself ranges to 100%. This is one of the reasons why I withdrew from participation with the Unite Cyprus now group. Their narrative was, for me, too much 'it is not us that are the problem and need to change, its the 'others' that need to do so'.

So the solution is not just 'TC need to change', with the spoken or unspoken corollary that GC do not. If we want change then we need to start with ourselves. Before we think of challenging others to change we have first to ask to what degree am I willing to challenge and change myself.

I am already 'in the bag'. If there was an opportunity tomorrow to vote for a 'unitary normal Cypriot state' I would vote for such, accepting as a Cypriot without children and with viable 'escape routes' should it all go tits up, that the risk is worth taking. However I am realistic enough to recognise that I am a tiny minority with TC opinion generally. I suggest, to the likes of Sotos and Maximus that instead or at least as well as telling others (TC) what they should and must do, you try asking yourself what could I change about myself, my beliefs and the way I behave, that could increase the chances of a majority of TC being able to believe that 'tomorrow' in a normal unitary Cyprus, TC would not have any reason to suspect or fear that they might be subject to unfair discrimination and prejudice for no other reason than they are TC ?

If on asking that question all you can come up with is 'nothing I can or need to do in the face of TC being, ethically, greedy thieving stealing anti democratic barbarians' then to me you are just part of the problem not the solution. I could give many suggestions as to what you could seek to challenge and change about your own behaviour, here on this forum or generally, that would be compatible with desire to see a majority of TC choosing to want to support moving to a unitary Cypriot state. But doing so is and would be pointless if you wish to continue in a belief that change is and can be achieved simply by demanding 'others' challenge and change.

[Lordo]

the other day b25 claimed that niyazi is a spy and cannot be trusted and then claimed that the fact that we now have a tc elected as an mep with gc votes, it is possible to have a unitary state. sure it is in about a million years.

i really don't see any point convincing the swines of what it is that has to happen before such a thing can happen. let them wallow in their ignorance and that way they sleep easier at night. the last thing i would wish for them is guilt added to their demneted hatred filled heads.

[Sotos]

Hello Erolz. Britain, with the help of Turkey, did impose the 1960 constitution, and they did so in order to serve their own interests and not the interests of Cypriots. And when you impose something on somebody else against their will then you assume responsibility for the result... even if your intentions were good, let alone when all you cared about was yourself and not them.

Also, you insist equating union with Greece with British rule. It is totally different when foreign rule is imposed on a territory and when the population of that territory democratically chooses to join others. Gibraltar, Falklands and Scotland are all willingly part of the UK. The population of those territories, one person one vote regardless of ethnic background, choose to be part of UK. In Scotland nearly 50% of the people believe that choice was wrong, and it might be, but they still respect the result.

Or look at the UK with Brexit. The majority voted leave. You might think it was a wrong choice, but it was their own choice and therefore they are responsible for the results of their choice, positive or negative ones. A foreign power can't impose by force something against the will of the British people, and if they did so then that foreign power would assume responsibility for the result, and if the result was a bad one then the British people would have every right to blame that foreign power.

By that I don't mean we don't have share of responsibility as well. It is true that lots of GCs looked down on TCs in those times and it is perfectly reasonable for the TCs not to want union with Greece, so we made it very easy for the British to apply their divide and rule practices. And after 1960 we could have done a lot better in managing the crappy constitution that we were given.

So, about the future...

I accept your criticism, and you are right. I wasn't always like this, but honestly at some point I gave up. The "solutions" proposed and what is negotiated is in my opinion no liberation and no unification and they aren't even better from an agreed partition (recognition for the return of land). And I don't think what we say matters much for TCs anyways. We had 15 years of "Confidence Building Measures" with practically zero results where it matters. People can be friends, but in the end of the day it is the interests that count when voting time comes (for the majority - there are exceptions).

I think that that the status quo doesn't serve either the GCs or the TCs. For GCs the longer there is no solution the more difficult it becomes to get any land back. For the TCs I believe is even worst, since the longer there is no solution, the greater the number of Settlers, the more they are swallowed by a regressive Islamic State.

The mistake of our side is giving to the TCs false hopes that the solution they want (which is essentially partition within EU + natural gas share) is just around the corner. Giving RoC IDs to TCs and the "Confidence Building Measures" only help to make the status quo more comfortable for the TCs, so they feel no pressure to compromise. As a result a solution is not found and Turkey is meanwhile swallowing the north.

I think our side, which is the majority of Cypriots, should take the initiative and stop expecting from the UN and foreigners to make proposals. We should should propose to TCs several different options, ranging from a return to the unitary state which was agreed in 1960, with only the minimum of changes, to a BBF which will contain the maximum that our side can offer for a democratic, functional state, to an 82%-18% split partition (with TCs being out of EU). We can't have any kind of common country if we can't agree, and if TCs do not accept our maximum compromise then a common country solution is not possible. And since partition would be the only alternative then the only "fair" way to do it would be based on land ownership / population.

If the TCs reject all options, then we should wait until UK leaves the EU, and then in collaboration with EU start gradually cutting back on the benefits that RoC and EU offers to the TCs and apply pressure on them to make a choice.

If the TCs choose a unitary state or BBF with the right content then great. If they choose to have their own state on about 18% of land, then it will be acceptable, and if one day they join the EU then we can have a sort of unity through that. At the same time it should be made clear to them by both RoC and EU that greed will not be acceptable and that they can not have a BBF exactly as they want it, nor a partition with an unfair land distribution.

[Lordo]

thast bull and you know it. the reason why the agreement was imposed was becasue you had no intention of being independent you wanted to be goat herders of griiiiis. sling your hook else where boy.

now i am a democratic person and respect your right to want anything you wish for but unfortunately your animalistic tendences do not see your way beyond to understand that tcs did not want to attend your shhep tending and will never do it either.

be man and face up to your stupidity you stupid boy.

[Kikapu]

thast bull and you know it. the reason why the agreement was imposed was becasue you had no intention of being independent you wanted to be goat herders of griiiiis. sling your hook else where boy.

now i am a democratic person and respect your right to want anything you wish for but unfortunately your animalistic tendences do not see your way beyond to understand that tcs did not want to attend your shhep tending and will never do it either.

be man and face up to your stupidity you stupid boy.

Let’s say for argument sake you are 100% correct Lordo, so the question you need to answer is, why doesn’t the TC still do not want a Democratic system today for EU member state Cyprus, be it be BBF or a Unitary state with all it’s principles, especially under such a system, there would be no need for the majority to be part of Greece any longer?

[Maximus]

It’s an oxymoron.

You sAy you support other people’s democratic And human rights and anything they wish for but you dont really.

You deny them and then blame others because they tried to exercise their democratic right.

You talk out of both sides of your mouth, as well as your other orifice. you want to be Cypriot and you want to be separate and a Turk at the same time with taksim and everything.

[Maximus]

erolz

I can appreciate your comment, I may not agree with all of it but towards the end I think there is enough common ground to let the rest slide.

You should be commended for much of what you say. And if I recall correctly, it is a huge about turn from your views and opinions from years gone by.

I would just like to add and echo what Soto’s has already mentioned,

Enough confidence building measures have been tried, enough years have passed and in my opinion, it hasn’t got the roc anywhere. the solution is very simple in my opinion and i try to get to it by being fair and unbiased, with just the end goal in mind.

It is however, in my opinion, the Turkish and tc politicos that are the belligerent ones. They need to move the most to meet your aspiration for Cyprus to be a unitary democratic and normal state. In fact Cyprus, the roc, is already that.

So then Tc can experience the normalcy and harmony of living in such.