Cyprus-Forum.com

[Robin Hood]

Robin Hood wrote:

IMO: The majority of people on both sides of the argument didn’t have a clue what it was they were voting for. The whole referendum has been driven by a fear of the unknown and propaganda from both sides that supported their mostly distorted perceptions.

Cyprusgrump wrote:

I'm sorry, that is just daft...

I have no reason to question your figures as anything but accurate but, whatever they spent was clearly completely wasted as it never got the message over as to what Brexit/Remain actually involved. Going by this forum and others discussing the situation the opinions seem to be driven by propaganda and scare mongering from both sides. Very little is tied down to specifics.

Yes .... there were talking heads on the TV almost continually since the referendum but most just made predictions and waffled on without explaining how they came to their conclusions. To have an absolute grasp of the process and the effects is an impossibility .... as we can see from the absolute chaos that prevails in both Parliament and the Government. They all seem completely clueless ........ so who is pulling their strings?

I concentrated on only the bits that interested me and that I knew something about. I was already aware there was a weakness of the system that existed whether it was IN or OUT, that being banking, the monetary and financial systems. That is how I came to look at Articles 123 and 124 of the Lisbon Treaty ...... because in those two articles is a much bigger story. I even posted a link to what the effects of those articles were and how the ECB have used QE and that legislation solely for the benefit of the banks. It turns out that the UK Central Bank did exactly the same thing with their QE and both did it for the same reason .....for the exclusive benefit of the Banks which is obvious as it made no difference either way to the real economy but significantly influenced to the market economy. Neither was of benefit to the people or the real economy!

I don’t like Trump but, I question why May has taken 2½ years to ‘negotiate’ and still get nowhere when Trump can make momentous decisions with a TWEET? Maybe his advice to May was to tell the EU to shove it , send Junker/Barnier et al a TWEET and make it a clean break divorce .... then sort out the problems when they became problems. Not to try and cross all the tee’s and dot all the I’s before making the leap ..... I expect that to Trump, her lack of leadership and endless waffle, is nothing other than a sign of negotiating weakness on the part of the UK.

So it is not daft .... it is a view of events from another angle!

[Paphitis]

Just a quick question(s) for all the Brexiters.

1. Did the UK not benefit economically by being in the EU for the last 40+ years?
2. What was the harm for the UK being in the EU?
3. How would the foreign workers situation going to change in the UK if UK needs workers that the Brits won't do?
4. Will France act as a guard in stopping immigrants going to the UK after Brexit, or will they tell the immigrants, "here is your one way ticket to the UK and Bon Voyage"?

That is an impossible question to answer because we do not know how well the UK could have done out of the EU.

Brexiters are wanting a more independent UK where it isn't dictated to by the EU machine. The UK will have stronger control over its fiscal and monetary policy and its borders.

Norway, isn't an EU member and has one of the strongest economies in Europe. It's doing better than most EU members, if not all EU members.

What Norway, Switzerland and couple of other countries with strong economies who are not EU members, all have the 4 freedoms, as well as make financial contributions to the EU. They just don‘t take part in decisions makings in the EU as a member. It is what “soft“ Brexit would looked like if the UK accepted such a proposal. Norway and other few countries that have special relationship with the EU is as close as one can being an EU member, and yes, these few countries benefit economically by having this kind of relationship with the EU. What the Brexiters want is a 100% separation from the EU.

The truth is, the UK had benefitted economically for the last 40+ years as an EU member state. It is a known fact. One cannot prove a negative what the UK would have done economically if they were never part of the EU in any way or shape, so we can only say what it has been and not what it has not been.

The UK thought they could cherrypick what they want with the EU and leave the rest and the EU said to the UK, ”why don‘t you go fuck yourself“, and the UK is saying, ”thanks, we will“, and are doing just that.

Even Turkey is as close as one can be to an EU State.

Same with Australia and USA. We have Free Trade with the EU.

You guys seem to think you need to be a member of the EU to have Free Trade.

There is hardly any difference between an EU Member and Norway, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand and USA. In fact, the non EU members have advantages. BIG advantages. Those are, we have our own fiscal policy and monetary supply, and we are all in control of our borders and demand VISAs for all EU Citizens. Those are HUGE advantages.

The EURO has never been an advantage to many of the members of the EU. In fact, it has been a disaster and it continues to be a noose round their necks. They are not independent nations to set their own inflation levels to suit their own economies. One size does not fit all.

Whilst the Germans sell Porsche and BMWs, Cyprus sells Kolokasi!

No Paphitis, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand and the USA are not as close as they can be as being an EU members, because they do not have the 4 freedoms. Turkey has been begging the EU to up grade their customs union for the last few years and the EU has been ignoring them. The whole world have a trade agreements with the EU, some being a ”free trade“, but it does not make them being close to being an EU members.

Look, not everything is hunky dory with the EU, but at the same time, there are other countries who are lining up to join. Surely they are not that stupid to join a ”sinking ship EU“ are they, if there was no economic benefit For them?

What freedoms are you talking about Kikapu?

Are you telling me that the EU is somehow more free than the USA? I don't think that is the reality.

I don't think you understand, but we do NOT want these 4 freedoms you are talking about. We want control over our borders, our own fiscal policy and monetary supply and our own independence. We do not want to have Eastern Europeans come to Australia and work for $5 per hour. We have a unionized work force. Why the hell would we want toopen ourselves up to your "4 freedoms"?

Right now, we choose who comes in and we get the cream of the crop.

We just want to have some free trade, but on our terms and nothing more than that.

Turkey has Free Trade. What else could their industry and elites ever want? They don't give a stuff if Mohamed can't go to Germany.

[cyprusgrump]

I have no reason to question your figures as anything but accurate but, whatever they spent was clearly completely wasted as it never got the message over as to what Brexit/Remain actually involved. Going by this forum and others discussing the situation the opinions seem to be driven by propaganda and scare mongering from both sides. Very little is tied down to specifics.

Not at all…

Leavers are very clear that they voted to leave the EU and its institutions. That was abundantly clear from all the campaigns, advertising and debates.

Remainers considered the status quo to be the best option.

It really is as simple as that. A binary choice in the referendum and the government committed to honour the result whichever way it went.

We voted ‘Leave’.

Yes .... there were talking heads on the TV almost continually since the referendum but most just made predictions and waffled on without explaining how they came to their conclusions. To have an absolute grasp of the process and the effects is an impossibility .... as we can see from the absolute chaos that prevails in both Parliament and the Government. They all seem completely clueless ........ so who is pulling their strings?

No, you are conflating two completely different things.

1) The referendum. The government laid down a timetable and there was a thorough debate on almost every aspect of leaving.

Sure, there was some miss-information and exaggeration on both sides, but that is what politicians do. They care little for the voters apart from at election time at which point they are quite happy to lie to and bribe the electorate to get their vote.

Quite frankly, anybody that has reached the age of say, thirty and doesn’t realise that politicians are self-serving is a bit of a fool.

However, the referendum was a binary vote and the electorate decided to leave.

2) The Duplicity of Parliament. Sadly, the vast majority of MPs want the country to remain in the EU as it greatly improves their chances of becoming rich leaching off of the taxpayer. A cynic might also argue that deferring decision making to Brussels greatly reduces their work-load.

As a result, parliament has spent the time since the referendum seeking to overturn the decision of the voters. That is the reason for the chaos that you mention.

I’m sanguine about it to be honest. I think the Brexit genie is out of the bottle now and it will be impossible for those that have directly opposed the will of the people to replace it.

Sure, there are those that will vote Tory/Labour because they always voted Tory/Labour but there are a huge number of people that will never forgive those that asked them to vote and then ignored the result. Brexit may not be this year or next but you can be sure Brexit is coming.

This government needs Brexit. Any other result (indefinite delay, revoking article 50 or a second referendum) will lead to political chaos.

[Kikapu]

Paphitis,

I am just stating that the countries you have stated that they are as close as they can get by being in the EU just because some may have free trade with the EU, and all I am saying is, unless the countries you have stated has the 4 freedoms (movement of goods, capital, services and Labour) with the EU, they are nowhere near as being as close as being an EU member, that‘s all.

[miltiades]

The will of the people ???
Are the Scots not people ?
How about the 16 million who voted remain ?
A tiny majority which has a combined IQ of minus 1.!!! Lets not forget the little Englanders as well as the right wing.
Now the people know, they know that our NHS will NOT be better of by 350 million a week, the people also know that our NHS will face severe shortages personnel, they also know that investements will crumble.
You also know that the pound in your pocket will devalue . But you dont care, you are a small Englander so just as long as we....have pur country back and make our own laws !!!! What absolute rubbish. You just never accepted the fact that Germany IS the EU leader.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,

I am just stating that the countries you have stated that they are as close as they can get by being in the EU just because some may have free trade with the EU, and all I am saying is, unless the countries you have stated has the 4 freedoms (movement of goods, capital, services and Labour) with the EU, they are nowhere near as being as close as being an EU member, that‘s all.

Kikapu,

we Do have freedom of movement of goods, capital, and services. What we do not have and don't want to have is freedom of movement of your labor into our economies, a common currency or be bogged down by your laws.

The EU has never restricted the movement of our goods, capital and services.

Let's look at it this way in an alternate universe. Australia participates in Euro-vision. I know, it's pretty crazy and stupid because Australia isn't even in Europe but it participates in this music festival for some strange reason. Let's say, Australia was allowed to join the EU.

What does the Australian Economy have to gain by being a part of the EU? What exactly would make Australia better off?

Personally, I couldn't think of anything worse. In fact, I believe Australia becoming an EU state is an insult and a terrible thing. It's an insult to our country, our sovereignty and people. Being such a small country (population wise), wewould lose every essence of being Australian, and our culture.

[Kikapu]

Paphitis,

No one has asked Australia to become part of the EU as far as I know, so why bring that up, that Ausralia would not join the EU?

As for the Eurovision no talent song contest, I wish they would get rid of it, but unfortunately, too many people have bad taste when it comes to TV entertainment. Survivor is another such show.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,

No one has asked Australia to become part of the EU as far as I know, so why bring that up, that Ausralia would not join the EU?

As for the Eurovision no talent song contest, I wish they would get rid of it, but unfortunately, too many people have bad taste when it comes to TV entertainment. Survivor is another such show.

I bring it up because I see the EU as being pointless.

The question I asked you is to see whether there are any advantages to EU membership for Australia other than the freedom of movement of EU citizens.Will Australia be a stronger country by being a part of the EU? Will the economy be stronger? My opinion on this is obvious.I wasn't commenting on the practicality of Australia joining or whether it is possible. It probably isn't practical or possible (thank heavens), but let's say it was just like we are seeing Australia is Eurovision, what would Australia gain from EU membership?

Everyone seems to think that EU Membership is the sacred cow and that without the EU, the UK will somehow collapse.

Probably it wouldn't. Plus the EU would probably interfere with Australia's carbons industry as well such as Coal, and Gas.

I see that the European countries outside of the EU are actually doing better than most EU members as well, whilst the EU nearly caused a collapse of the Southern Countries.

[Kikapu]

Paphitis,

No one has asked Australia to become part of the EU as far as I know, so why bring that up, that Ausralia would not join the EU?

As for the Eurovision no talent song contest, I wish they would get rid of it, but unfortunately, too many people have bad taste when it comes to TV entertainment. Survivor is another such show.

I bring it up because I see the EU as being pointless.

The question I asked you is to see whether there are any advantages to EU membership for Australia other than the freedom of movement of EU citizens.Will Australia be a stronger country by being a part of the EU? Will the economy be stronger? My opinion on this is obvious.I wasn't commenting on the practicality of Australia joining or whether it is possible. It probably isn't practical or possible (thank heavens), but let's say it was just like we are seeing Australia is Eurovision, what would Australia gain from EU membership?

Everyone seems to think that EU Membership is the sacred cow and that without the EU, the UK will somehow collapse.

Probably it wouldn't. Plus the EU would probably interfere with Australia's carbons industry as well such as Coal, and Gas.

I see that the European countries outside of the EU are actually doing better than most EU members as well, whilst the EU nearly caused a collapse of the Southern Countries.

No one said that the UK will collapse without the EU. Time will tell if U.K. will be better off out of the EU economically. We will need to wait 40+ years to find out to be able to compare oranges to oranges. At the same time, the UK and it‘s citizens have had great benefits by being part of the EU for the last 40+ years. Had Australia been in the Europe’s hemisphere, it too would have benefitted as an EU member. As much as I had enjoyed my visit to Australia, even if it were to be an EU member today, not many Europeans would want to transplant themselves there from Europe, So you don‘t need to worry about Australia will be flooded with people, god knows Australia could do with another 100 million population growth for the country to become an economic powerhouse, as most of Australia is not developed yet.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,

No one has asked Australia to become part of the EU as far as I know, so why bring that up, that Ausralia would not join the EU?

As for the Eurovision no talent song contest, I wish they would get rid of it, but unfortunately, too many people have bad taste when it comes to TV entertainment. Survivor is another such show.

I bring it up because I see the EU as being pointless.

The question I asked you is to see whether there are any advantages to EU membership for Australia other than the freedom of movement of EU citizens.Will Australia be a stronger country by being a part of the EU? Will the economy be stronger? My opinion on this is obvious.I wasn't commenting on the practicality of Australia joining or whether it is possible. It probably isn't practical or possible (thank heavens), but let's say it was just like we are seeing Australia is Eurovision, what would Australia gain from EU membership?

Everyone seems to think that EU Membership is the sacred cow and that without the EU, the UK will somehow collapse.

Probably it wouldn't. Plus the EU would probably interfere with Australia's carbons industry as well such as Coal, and Gas.

I see that the European countries outside of the EU are actually doing better than most EU members as well, whilst the EU nearly caused a collapse of the Southern Countries.

No one said that the UK will collapse without the EU. Time will tell if U.K. will be better off out of the EU economically. We will need to wait 40+ years to find out to be able to compare oranges to oranges. At the same time, the UK and it‘s citizens have had great benefits by being part of the EU for the last 40+ years. Had Australia been in the Europe’s hemisphere, it too would have benefitted as an EU member. As much as I had enjoyed my visit to Australia, even if it were to be an EU member today, not many Europeans would want to transplant themselves there from Europe, So you don‘t need to worry about Australia will be flooded with people, god knows Australia could do with another 100 million population growth for the country to become an economic powerhouse, as most of Australia is not developed yet.

I don't think there will be an EU in 40 times Kikapu.

There certainly won't be a Euro.

I don't believe Australia or any country needs to be in the same hemisphere. Geography is insignificant.

But I seriously question you on your belief that Australia will benefit. How is that possible when Australia is outperforming all EU members? In fact the only country near to Australia's economy in Europe are the 2 non EU states in Norway and Switzerland.

What is further astonishing is that the country that is seemingly outperforming every OECD country including Australia, Switzerland, and Norway, is the USA.