Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Automation also causes its own issues.

But I will leave it all to you then, since you are all very cool, calm and collected from behind your own computers.

What we can say is this. You can thank God that people like you are not in the aviation industry because with your mentality we will definitely not be in good shape in terms of our just and no blame culture. You will shoot yourselves in the foot big time.

Investigations are conducted under the principles of ICAO annex 13. This is the safety culture that pervades throughout our industry and it is very fragile. It's taken us a very long time and cost thousands of lives to get to where we are.

All our processes are focused on education and prevention of repeat accidents. That has always been the focus in the last few decades at least.

It's a system where pilots and engineers are able to self report issues, beaches and incidents without reprisal or judgement. It's about owning problems and addressing them.

https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... let_en.pdf


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[erolz66]

You just do not seem to get it paphitis. I will make one last attempt and then slink off again.

I do not want anyone, designing planes, testing planes, certifying planes, regulating planes, flying planes who can say as an 'industry insider' things about an accident like this, before any evidence is given, that when those things turn out to be totally an absolutely wrong is unable, seemingly physically and pathologically, to admit to themselves or any one else that they were wrong.

Simples.

[erolz66]

What I was unprepared to do, and still am unprepared to do is jump to any conclusions.

A more demonstrably 'full of shit' statement would be hard to imagine. Not only did you IMMEDIATELY jump to conclusion after conclusion and post these here as an 'industry insider' just about every single one has subsequently been shown to have been wrong. This is what you said previously

The B737 MAXI will also be flying within the next few days as well.

No jumping to conclusions there ?

The problem with this accident I hate to say is mostly pilot error.

No jumping to conclusions there ?

The only clear thing for me at this point is that the pilots were not trained to deal with this (MCAS) after they stalled the aircraft.

No jumping to conclusions there ?

The list of conclusions you DID jump to just goes on and on and on and just about every single conclusion you jumped to has now been shown to be incorrect.

Twat

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

Automation also causes its own issues.

I agree wholeheartedly with that comment!

But I will leave it all to you then, since you are all very cool, calm and collected from behind your own computers.

Paphitis, unlike you I have been in the front line of the safety culture ..... not on aeroplanes but on chemical plants. That is just as involved and just as complex as any aeroplane but an explosion or even a fire on a chemical plant can have even more catastrophic results than an air crash. So on safety you are trying to teach Grandma how to suck eggs!

Yes .... I am infinitely more calm and collected than you will ever be. I very rarely jump to conclusions and think before I open my mouth. You may not like what you hear but at least I can always give you a reason for my saying it.

What we can say is this. You can thank God that people like you are not in the aviation industry because with your mentality we will definitely not be in good shape in terms of our just and no blame culture.

You seem to think ONLY aviation requires a culture of safety and that because you happen to sit at the front you are an expert on the subject?

You are nothing other than a systems operator! You do what you are told to do, you go where you are told, by a route you are given, at a height and speed as directed by ATC and you do nothing other than that without clearance from above. You are talking about yourself! YOU are your own worst enemy as can be seen by comments on here and other threads.

[erolz66]

When I said I was going to 'slink off' I was wrong. I made a mistake. I admit it.

I am really angry. It may be that my anger is connected to being in a 'bad place' right now, maybe its this winter and all the rain with more yet to come that is part of it, maybe it is watching the country I was born in and lived the first 36 odd years of my life tear itself apart and seemingly being unable to stop doing so. Maybe I just have not got laid enough recently. Whatever. I am genuinely angry and here is why

PEOPLE DIED PAHITIS. Not just the passengers but the pilots and crew as as well.

When you come on here , present yourself as an 'industry insider' and jump to conclusions and state things like

'The problem with this accident I hate to say is mostly pilot error'
'The only clear thing for me at this point is that the pilots were not trained to deal with this (MCAS) after they stalled the aircraft.'

You are not just talking to 'us', you are also, however indirectly, talking to the families of the victims of this tragedy, including the loved ones of the dead pilots and doing so on 'behalf' of the industry that killed them.

When it turns out that the pilots did NOT stall the aircraft and you then claim 'What I was unprepared to do, and still am unprepared to do is jump to any conclusions.', you are saying this, however indirectly, to the those who lost loved one in these tragedies.

It is disgusting. It is abhorrent.

There is a clear reason why you jumped to the conclusions you did. Why you jumped to conclusions like

"MCAS only engages to correct an already present pilot error." and "The MCAS could easily be disengaged. It would not have been certified if that was not the case."

You jumped to these conclusions because of your belief that "The safety culture is beyond question and sacred." You were WRONG. You were wrong about the conclusions you jumped to and the reason why you jumped to such was wrong. Not only are you unable to admit you were wrong you then try and claim you did not jump to conclusions in the first place.

This is insulting to my intelligence but that is nothing new here and not a big deal. What has me so angry is that it is also insulting to thousands of traumatised and grieving parents, children, husbands , wives, brothers sisters uncles and aunts and great uncles and aunts of the victims of these tragedies.

It is disgusting. It is abhorrent. You should be ashamed.

[repulsewarrior]

...yiasou erolz.

[Kikapu]

It is without a question, that the aviation industry is the most safest form of transportation in the world, or else we as people would not get on an aircraft to fly thousands of miles and many hours. No pilot in the world would get into the cockpit to fly an aircraft he/she thought it was going to crash and no aircraft manufacturer is going to build a plane knowing it is going to crash. I think we can all agree with the above statements.

However, planes do crash and people have died and more will die in the future as there isn‘t 100% foolproo'f System where humans are involved. As most crashes, it is Human errors which have caused an aircraft to crash whether it was in the design stage, manufacturing stage, maintenance stage, operational stage, criminal stage and on few times, from act of god stage. Most air crashes are never just one thing, but rather accumulation of mistakes, and as those mistakes are learned, addressed and corrected, we get the confidence that we have today to jump on a plane without second thought to fly halfway around the world or just a short trip across the channel as both flights would require the same safety standards to make that trip a safe one, and it is done so thousands of times each day with millions of passengers. However, the risk is always there that something might go wrong at any level where humans are involved.

Did Boeing deliberately manufacture a defective aircraft in the 737 MAX? Of course not. Is there a problem with the cancellation of the MCAS system once activated for whatever reason that causes for it to believe that the aircraft has been stalled, and the answer is a “yes“. Just like with past mistakes in modern technologies at that time which has caused crashes that were learned from, the same will happen with the MCAS as this is all part of the future intentions where planes will be pilotless just as trains, ships, cars, trucks, buses and so on. Human mistakes today in aviation is a better aviation for others in the future. Paphitis is doing his part today for a better aviation for others in the future, as we all are, by accepting certain risks whenever we fly.

[Lordo]

who in their right mind could design a automatic system to launches itself again when switched off to manual. who in their right mind would accept such a feature in a safety system and approve the sale of these aircraft.

this can only happen when designers and approvers are in cahoots for personal gain and no regards for safety what so ever. as to boeing producing safe aircraft, these two crashes say otherwise.

but fancy advising pilots that they do not need to do anything and allow only minimal training with the system. i do not wish death to anybody but it is such a shame that it did not happen in the usa with us citizens killed and then we would have seen a totally different decision after the first crash and of course the second crash would never have happened.

[Robin Hood]

Lordo:

who in their right mind could design a automatic system to launches itself again when switched off to manual. who in their right mind would accept such a feature in a safety system and approve the sale of these aircraft.

I think you are being a bit harsh! Nobody does that deliberately so some one obviously made a mistake in the design? Designs are always checked but ...... if sales make delivery promises and put the engineers under pressure and the checking out process is rushed ..... then on rare occasions an error is missed.

this can only happen when designers and approvers are in cahoots for personal gain and no regards for safety what so ever. as to Boeing producing safe aircraft, these two crashes say otherwise.

No! You are wrong. This was no deliberate act .... it was an accident, the cause of which is being investigated. It may be people were taking short cuts or listening to assurances from 'experts' but before any blame can be assigned we need to know WHAT happened.

but fancy advising pilots that they do not need to do anything and allow only minimal training with the system. i do not wish death to anybody but it is such a shame that it did not happen in the usa with us citizens killed and then we would have seen a totally different decision after the first crash and of course the second crash would never have happened.

Again you are making an assumption. As far as the designers were concerned it was designed to kick-in automatically but an error was present which caused the system, in certain conditions (failed sensor?), to see a false condition and it did what it was designed to do ..... automatically. If it does it automatically, why does the crew need to know how it works?

[Lordo]

I beg to differ. the design itself is faulty and caused the problem not the conditions. the whole point of allowing pilots to switch it off is in case the sensor goes wrong is a good spec, however to ignore the faulty sensor and allow it to switch the system on despite the fact that it is faulty, is not just a fault, it is beyond stupidity on the part of the designers, builders and the approvers which are all in cahoots not to keep the public safe but make profits for the government and the corporation.

When it comes to building prorects there is a lovely word we use callot piloting. you test the system to the limit to see if it can cope with all eventualities. perhaps when testing it they did not consider the situation of this sensor going wrong. If this project of building the plane originally and testing it was carried out correctly we would never have been in this situation. but really telling airlines that this plane flys itself and the pilots can recieve minimal training was criminal and it goes right to the top. This organisation is not fir to build aircraft and should not be allowed to sell a single aircraft as well withdraw all the aircraft with this system on from service.

if these people were so negligent about such simple matters, god only knows what else lurks in the background where they have cocked up and we have just not found about it yet. And we will sooner or later.