Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

So you don't understand the difference between "want to" and "miscalculated the risk"? If somebody miscalculates the risk of walking through a bad neighborhood and he gets murdered by some criminals does that mean that he wanted to die?

I answered you 3 times so far: No, but he miscalculated the risk. What is it that you didn’t understand?

There is nothing I don't understand and I agree that we miscalculated the risk. This is not what you originally said, but at least in this case you changed your position.

Wrong again. We ALWAYS wanted a united Cyprus with equal rights, and it is the Turks who NEVER accepted this and imposed discrimination based on race so they can have gains on our expense. They did this during Ottoman rule, they did this with the racist 1960 constidution that was imposed on us, and now they are blackmailing us again for more racist discriminations.

I know very well what TCs want because the TELL us what they want: Everything divided in two. Go ask the TCs how many of them accept a truly united Cyprus without any division of either the territory or among the citizens, and almost nobody will accept this. From this forum out of so many TCs we've seen over the years only Kikapu wants such thing. People like Kikapu are probably less than 1% among TCs, and partitionists like Akinci and Niyazi are NOTHING like Kikapu.

What we wanted was ENOSIS. Did you forget that? Enosis caused the reaction for partition. So much you know about our history….
Like I said the majority of TCs are happy with a BBF, Kikaku included.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with wanting enosis. Just like Gibraltar, Falklands and Scotland choose democratically to be part of the UK, the same way we choose to be part of Greece.

It is no excuse to murder and ethnically cleanse people just because they want to unite their own territory with another territory. You are just repeating the Turkish propaganda.

I know very well the history of my country. Both the majority (GCs) and all other ethnic minorities except the Turks wanted only what they deserved - nothing more and nothing less. It is only the Turkish minority which NEVER accepted democracy and ALWAYS insisted on racist discriminations so they can gain on our expense and on the expense of every other Cypriot minority as well.

We had a "perfect Democracy" from 1963-1974 doing as we pleased while 1/5th of our population was living in conditions of total misery in enclaves, eaten by fleas, with no medical care, no medicine, no food. Mainland Greek MPs who visited with Red Cross said they felt ashamed to be Greek. Read some books FCS. Half the responsibility was ours half their TMT’s. Plus the thieves among us who were burning their houses to make them leave and steal everything. Who in his right mind would ever accept such a "perfect Democracy"?

What we had back then was not a perfect democracy and this was not just our fault, but also the fault of the TCs who refused to accept democracy. And it is NOT just the TMT, but the majority of TCs. Should I remind you that Dektash was elected by the TCs as their leader for decades?

The process has existed in Cyprus as well. For example we suffered as second category people under the Ottomans for centuries. The problem is that the Turks do not want to progress because it doesn't suit them. In 2019 they insist on things that were outdated even in the 60s. I do not expect an "ideal democracy" but I expect a normal democracy like those that exist in all other EU countries, including what exists NOW in Cyprus. What we have now is not "ideal" but it is WAY better compared to what we will have with the undemocratic, racist, "solution" that the Turks want. So why should I want to legalize the partition with such a "solution", instead of the current partition we have now?

No such process ever existed in Cyprus. See above.
What such "solution"? The one you just imagine?

In Cyprus we only had the part of the process that included our oppression, but never the part of the process where it is recognized that human rights violations and racist discriminations are wrong. The Turks never accepted this.

The "solution" I am referring to is what is already agreed before Anastasiades realized how stupid he has been and that accepting such thing would destroy Cyprus.

So you are such a fool that ever after I showed that GR was bullshiting you, and even after I replicated what GR was showing to you, you STILL believe his crap? If GR can fool you so easily then how hard would it be for the Turks to fool you?

You showed nothing. And yes I believe he can do it. Other than expressing doubt you haven’t proved anything, so stop fooling yourself.

OK. I have some magic beans to sell you. Here is the proof:

[Lordo]

it really is not rocket science sotouruimmou

in 1960 you signed an agreement for roc which included tcs and their share of power and excluded enosis. after having signed an internationa agreement to exclude enosis if then you can turn around at any time and it does not matter how long later saying i now want enosis and see nothong wrong with that perhaps you know exactly what to do with your magic beans.

at least it wil help you with your enosozing with ypur favourate bankrupt nation and we can all live in peace without you

[Sotos]

it really is not rocket science sotouruimmou

in 1960 you signed an agreement for roc which included tcs and their share of power and excluded enosis. after having signed an internationa agreement to exclude enosis if then you can turn around at any time and it does not matter how long later saying i now want enosis and see nothong wrong with that perhaps you know exactly what to do with your magic beans.

at least it wil help you with your enosozing with ypur favourate bankrupt nation and we can all live in peace without you

We should have never been blackmailed to sign those "agreements" in the first place. You managed to blackmail us back then, but you can't do it again now. All your blackmails are failing one after the other.

[Pyrpolizer]

There is nothing I don't understand and I agree that we miscalculated the risk. This is not what you originally said, but at least in this case you changed your position.

This is exactly what I said 3 times in a row.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with wanting enosis. Just like Gibraltar, Falklands and Scotland choose democratically to be part of the UK, the same way we choose to be part of Greece.

It is no excuse to murder and ethnically cleanse people just because they want to unite their own territory with another territory. You are just repeating the Turkish propaganda.

You can’t choose democratically for anything that has to do with the physical existence of ANY single person, let aside a minority that was nearly 1/5th of the population. If it wasn’t a matter of physical existence nobody would care. That’s why we ended up to the Zurich agreements.

What we had back then was not a perfect democracy and this was not just our fault, but also the fault of the TCs who refused to accept democracy. And it is NOT just the TMT, but the majority of TCs. Should I remind you that Dektash was elected by the TCs as their leader for decades?

Here we go again. We did not have a functioning Democracy when the President himself was ignoring decisions of the Supreme court, and when all sorts of paramilitary organizations were taking the law in their hands, and when the police itself had countless of cold blood murderers.

No they were not voting Denktash for decades. In fact for 13 years in a row they were voting for Kucuk as the Vice President of the Republic. Denktash and Clerides were just negotiators. In 1973 Turkey sided Kucuk and Denktash was elected Vice President with no opposition.. Just like us who kept on voting by 98% for Makarios, they kept on voting for Denktash. Another indicator of our political immaturity…

In Cyprus we only had the part of the process that included our oppression, but never the part of the process where it is recognized that human rights violations and racist discriminations are wrong. The Turks never accepted this.

What "our oppression" man?? We were absolute masters before the invasion doing as we pleased. We were just stupid letting the TCs rot, instead of letting them catch up economically like us. Such was the extent of our stupidity…

The "solution" I am referring to is what is already agreed before Anastasiades realized how stupid he has been and that accepting such thing would destroy Cyprus.

Therefore you are just guessing of what the "solution" would be. Anastasiades is almost begging for the resumption of the talks. If Anastasiades already accepted things that would destroy Cyprus, he wouldn’t be in such a hurry to re-start them.

OK. I have some magic beans to sell you. Here is the proof:

Do you know how we called such sellers before 1974? Kilintzirous!

[Pyrpolizer]

it really is not rocket science sotouruimmou

in 1960 you signed an agreement for roc which included tcs and their share of power and excluded enosis. after having signed an internationa agreement to exclude enosis if then you can turn around at any time and it does not matter how long later saying i now want enosis and see nothong wrong with that perhaps you know exactly what to do with your magic beans.

at least it wil help you with your enosozing with ypur favourate bankrupt nation and we can all live in peace without you

We should have never been blackmailed to sign those "agreements" in the first place. You managed to blackmail us back then, but you can't do it again now. All your blackmails are failing one after the other.

So what's keeping us from denouncing the Zurich agreements, and the cursed RoC, whose constitution we signed under duress?

[Lordo]

it really is not rocket science sotouruimmou

in 1960 you signed an agreement for roc which included tcs and their share of power and excluded enosis. after having signed an internationa agreement to exclude enosis if then you can turn around at any time and it does not matter how long later saying i now want enosis and see nothong wrong with that perhaps you know exactly what to do with your magic beans.

at least it wil help you with your enosozing with ypur favourate bankrupt nation and we can all live in peace without you

We should have never been blackmailed to sign those "agreements" in the first place. You managed to blackmail us back then, but you can't do it again now. All your blackmails are failing one after the other.

why would we need to blackmail you when all we had to do was to object to the agreement and go for two state solution. you could not force tcs to accept a unitary state that reduced them to a minorty status.

on the other hand pretending to accept it with no intention to implementing it and attepting to change it without so much as seeing if it would work was fraudlant morally and legally which has been legalised by the international community. we dont need to blackmail you to do anything not now and not in the future. you are free to do anything you want but at the same time do not expect tcs to accept what you decide. you areally are beyond stupid, infact calling you stupid is an insult to stupid people like xerodjehalo.

[Sotos]

And how exactly would you get a "two state solution" when the majority of the whole island were Greek Cypriots? The only way to do that would be by ethnic cleansing, hence the blackmail.

The fact is that we are the native people of this island and the foreign British and Turks, collaborated to blackmail us and force us to "agree" on something which is clearly wrong.

You are the cancer of Cyprus. Barbarian Mongoloids who never in your history have done anything else than invading the lands of others.

[Lordo]

And how exactly would you get a "two state solution" when the majority of the whole island were Greek Cypriots? The only way to do that would be by ethnic cleansing, hence the blackmail.

The fact is that we are the native people of this island and the foreign British and Turks, collaborated to blackmail us and force us to "agree" on something which is clearly wrong.

You are the cancer of Cyprus. Barbarian Mongoloids who never in your history have done anything else than invading the lands of others.

you really have so muct to learn boy.

this i found quite interesting.





MORE

Alexander the Great was a king of Macedonia who conquered an empire that stretched from the Balkans to modern-day Pakistan.

Alexander was the son of Philip II and Olympias (one of Philip's seven or eight wives). He was brought up with the belief that he was of divine birth. "From his earliest days, Olympias had encouraged him to believe that he was a descendent of heroes and gods. Nothing he had accomplished would have discouraged this belief," writes Wellesley College classics professor Guy MacLean Rogers in his book "Alexander" (Random House, 2004).

"The personality of Alexander the Great was a paradox," Susan Abernethy of The Freelance History Writer told LiveScience. "He had great charisma and force of personality but his character was full of contradictions, especially in his later years (his early thirties). However, he had the ability to motivate his army to do what seemed to be impossible."

Alexander was a visionary, said Abernethy. His ability to dream, plan and strategize on a large scale allowed him to win many battles, even when he was outnumbered. It also helped motivate his men, who knew they were part of one of the greatest conquests in history.

Alexander could be inspiring and courageous, continued Abernethy. He was devoted to training his men, rewarding them with honors and spoils, and going into battle beside them, which furthered their devotion and confidence. "The fact that Alexander was young, beautiful and empathetic only helped to increase his influence on his soldiers and subjects," she said.

Yet, despite his military accomplishments, ancient records say that he failed to win the respect of some his subjects and, furthermore, he had some of the people closest to him murdered.
Alexander the prince

Alexander was born around July 20, 356 B.C., in Pella, which was the administrative capital of Macedonia. His father was often away, conquering neighboring territories and putting down revolts. Nevertheless, King Philip II of Macedon was one of Alexander's most influential role models, said Abernethy. "Philip ensured Alexander was given a noteworthy and significant education. He arranged for Alexander to be tutored by Aristotle himself … His education infused him with a love of knowledge, logic, philosophy, music and culture. The teachings of Aristotle [would later aid] him in the treatment of his new subjects in the empires he invaded and conquered, allowing him to admire and maintain these disparate cultures."

Alexander watched his father campaign nearly every year and win victory after victory. Philip remodeled the Macedonian army from citizen-warriors into a professional organization. Philip suffered serious wounds in battle such as the loss of an eye, a broken shoulder and a crippled leg. But he just kept on fighting, something Alexander would do as commander."

Cambridge University professor Paul Cartledge writes in his book "Alexander the Great" (MacMillan, 2004) that Philip decided to leave his 16-year-old son in charge of Macedonia while he was away on campaign. Alexander took advantage of the opportunity by defeating a Thracian people called the Maedi and founding "Alexandroupolis," a city he named after himself. "Alexander felt the need to challenge his father's authority and superiority and wished to out-do his father," said Abernethy.

Indeed, ancient records indicate that the two became estranged later in Alexander's teenage years and at one point his mother was exiled to Epirus. "Alexander may have resented his father's many marriages and the children born from them, seeing them as a threat to his own position," said Abernethy.

Philip II was assassinated in 336 B.C. while celebrating the wedding of his daughter Cleopatra (not the famous Egyptian pharaoh). The person who stabbed him was said to have been one of Philip's former male lovers, named Pausanias. While ancient writers spin an elaborate tale about his motives, some modern historians suspect that he may have been part of a larger plot to kill the king, one that may have included Alexander and his mother.

At the time of his death, Philip was contemplating invading Persia. The dream was passed onto Alexander, partly via his mother Olympias, according to Abernethy. "She fostered in him a burning dynastic ambition and told him it was his destiny to invade Persia."

what the hell is going on with these griiiiiks.
so when alex was a student of aristotle what did aristotle do to him other than teach him the alphabet?
what was his punishment when he got things wrong?
anybody knows?

[Sotos]

The Greeks have invaded others but the Greeks have also done A LOT MORE than that in Philosophy, Science, Arts etc. The Greek civilization is admired and taught in the whole world. What are the great accomplishments of the Turks? Absolutely nothing!

Secondly, today the Greeks do not claim as theirs any part of India, Persia, Egypt etc. and do not claim to be natives of those countries merely because they once occupied them.

Gay people exist in ALL countries and ancient Greece did not discriminate against them, something which today is recognized as the right thing to do. Trying to present this as a negative just shows how uncivilized you remain even in the 21st century.

[Kikapu]

I know very well what TCs want because the TELL us what they want: Everything divided in two. Go ask the TCs how many of them accept a truly united Cyprus without any division of either the territory or among the citizens, and almost nobody will accept this. From this forum out of so many TCs we've seen over the years only Kikapu wants such thing. People like Kikapu are probably less than 1% among TCs, and partitionists like Akinci and Niyazi are NOTHING like Kikapu.

What we wanted was ENOSIS. Did you forget that? Enosis caused the reaction for partition. So much you know about our history….
Like I said the majority of TCs are happy with a BBF, Kikaku included.

just that we all understand my position on BBF, is that since BBF is what is agreed to by the sides and it is what has been negotiated for the last few decades, I too support BBF as a concept since it is the only thing on the table. Where many people are divided on BBF, are it's applications. To Turkey and the "trnc", they want BBF which had everything in the 1959 Zurich agreements and more. To the RoC, they want a Democratic system as it is practiced anywhere in the western world, and this was way before 2004 when the RoC became part of the EU. We all know what the majority TCs and Turks want in the BBF via the Annan Plan and we also know what the majority of the GCs do not want in the BBF, also via the Annan Plan. There lies the dilemma.

I personally do not want or trust any settlement based on anything close to or worse than the 1959 Zurich agreements in any new BBF agreements as those said agreements is what has caused all the problems that we have today. Most of us have seen that movie in real time, and repeating past mistakes will only lead to similar problems in the future. It is a system that was never design to succeed other than cause division of the people and the country, so why repeat it? Turkey would love to repeat it, using the TCs as it's foot soldiers to demand the return of the failed past agreements because the Turks want full control of the island, either directly or indirectly, and the only way they can ever hope to achieve that, is through another undemocratic agreements as the case was with the 1959 Zurich agreements.

The RoC is not going to allow such agreements to happen, and did not happen before 2004 when the RoC became a full member of the EU, and most definitely, it is not going to let it happen anytime in the future as an EU member state. If the numerical minority TCs are not going to trust a fully Democratic system built into BBF as an EU member state with all of it's safeguards on rule of law, Human Rights and International law, why would the numerical majority GCs trust an undemocratic system in the BBF that goes against all of the EU's values?

It is a waste of time for the TCs/Turks asking for such undemocratic agreements to be in the BBF unless they expect the repeat of past problems to reappear in the near future, and they will. There's no question about that in my mind Why would anyone want to repeat failed past policies and not give a chance to Democratic policies with EU values? The GCs/RoC wants to give a Democratic system a go and not the past failed undemocratic system so why won't the TCs/Turkey?

For Federal Democratic system to work, "Political Equality" can only be based on political equality of each state to each other via the upper house, with "one man one vote". Political Equality cannot be based on equality of communities, but only individual citizens. This is not rocket science and we do not need to re-invent the wheel on what Democracy is and how to apply it. Cyprus is in the EU and has no choice but to apply EU values to any new BBF agreements regardless what the TCs and the Turks wants otherwise. This is the reality of today, just as the reality of the partitioning of the island at present via invasion and occupation by Turkey. The TCs and Turkey holding occupied territory as a ransom to blackmail the GCs/RoC to a BBF settlement not based on EU values only prolongs the non settlement on the island. For the GCs and the RoC is an easy choice. Keep the current status quo as is over turning the clock back to the 1959 Zurich agreement and worse.

Having lived in the Democratic Federal Government System in the USA for 25 years and Democratic Federal Government System in Confederate Switzerland for 15 years, I would choose both countries systems any day of the week over the systems proposed by the TCs/Turkey, because it can never safeguard the islands future in a positive way, but the opposite would be the outcome. We are Europeans and must accept to live in western democratic system regardless which community is a numerical minority or which one is a numerical majority, since governments in Democratic countries are formed by political parties in the majority and not by communities in the majority.

I hope I have explained my position on BBF!