Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Here you go Paphiti,

As a rule stay away from wiki when trying to understand financial terms

What is External Debt
External debt is the portion of a country's debt that was borrowed from foreign lenders including commercial banks, governments or international financial institutions. These loans, including interest, must usually be paid in the currency in which the loan was made. In order to earn the needed currency, the borrowing country may sell and export goods to the lender's country.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/external-debt.asp

So here we go, changing the goalposts.

That definition is ambiguous. Not very clear as it speaks of a portion of debt. External debt only pertains to the portion that is owed overseas. And given that, if Australia's National Debt is 19% of GDP then External Debt is what is owed by the Government overseas. External Debt plus Foreign Debt is completely different. This includes ALL debts which includes the private sector.

What you linked was not just Government Debt. It was private sector debt as well.

Here are more definitions for you:

External Debt: The amount that a country owes to foreigners, including the debts of both the country's government and its private sector.

http://www.investorwords.com/17580/external_debt.html

Here is another definition:

External debt

External debt is that part of the total debt in a country that is owed to creditors outside the country. The debtors can be the government, corporations or citizens of that country. The debt includes money owed to private commercial banks, other governments, or international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. Note that the use of gross liability figures greatly distorts the ratio for countries which contain major money centers, e.g. United Kingdom, because of London's role as a major money centre. Contrast Net international investment position

https://www.definitions.net/definition/External%20debt

There is nothing ambiguous about the definition of external debt..

Yeh there is. In your definition it mentions External Debt as the portion that is owed to overseas or international interests.

I am ok with that definition. However, Australian National Debt, as in Sovereign Debt pertaining to the Australian Nation State is 19% of GDP. A portion of that is external and another portion isn't. No problem there.

However, when you say that Australian External Debt is 1.5 Trillion, then you have included the private sector. And that isn't a fair comparison when you are comparing Australia with China anyway, because it is a given that Australia has more private sector debt. Australia is an OECD economy.

And given that you have included private debt, you have not included Australian Savings which are also among the highest in the world because Australian Pension Funds alone amount to 4.5 Trillion. That is just Australian Pension Funds from the Super System. You can't include the one without the other, because these 4.5 Trillion in savings are invested largely overseas and are therefore debts to Australia. Some are invested in International Bonds too.

So what you are doing is cherry picking and manipulating the definition in a very deceptive manner. Not cool.

[Pyrpolizer]

I did look it up from the very beginning and here it is:

External loan (or foreign debt) is the total debt a country owes to foreign creditors, complemented by internal debt owed to domestic lenders. The debtors can be the government, corporations or citizens of that country. The debt includes money owed to private commercial banks, other governments, or international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank.

So in other words, it is debt owed by a country + internal debt owed to domestic lenders. This is exactly what I said earlier.

The guy who wrote the Wiki article messed everything up by taking the correct Wiki definition of internal debt which is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_debt

Internal debt or domestic debt is the part of the total government debt in a country that is owed to lenders within the country. Internal debt's complement is external debt. Commercial banks, other financial institutions etc. constitute the sources of funds for the internal debts

So he presented you the misleading definition you quoted above, which is basically wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt

You can get the definition of external Debt from countless sources, here's one that's very precise
https://www.focus-economics.com/economi ... ernal-debt

External debt as percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the ratio between the debt a country owes to non-resident creditors and its nominal GDP. External debt is the part of a country’s total debt that was borrowed from foreign lenders, including commercial banks, governments or international financial institutions. Debtors can be individuals, corporations or the government.

[DT.]

Here you go Paphiti,

As a rule stay away from wiki when trying to understand financial terms

What is External Debt
External debt is the portion of a country's debt that was borrowed from foreign lenders including commercial banks, governments or international financial institutions. These loans, including interest, must usually be paid in the currency in which the loan was made. In order to earn the needed currency, the borrowing country may sell and export goods to the lender's country.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/external-debt.asp

So here we go, changing the goalposts.

That definition is ambiguous. Not very clear as it speaks of a portion of debt. External debt only pertains to the portion that is owed overseas. And given that, if Australia's National Debt is 19% of GDP then External Debt is what is owed by the Government overseas. External Debt plus Foreign Debt is completely different. This includes ALL debts which includes the private sector.

What you linked was not just Government Debt. It was private sector debt as well.

Here are more definitions for you:

External Debt: The amount that a country owes to foreigners, including the debts of both the country's government and its private sector.

http://www.investorwords.com/17580/external_debt.html

Here is another definition:

External debt

External debt is that part of the total debt in a country that is owed to creditors outside the country. The debtors can be the government, corporations or citizens of that country. The debt includes money owed to private commercial banks, other governments, or international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. Note that the use of gross liability figures greatly distorts the ratio for countries which contain major money centers, e.g. United Kingdom, because of London's role as a major money centre. Contrast Net international investment position

https://www.definitions.net/definition/External%20debt

There is nothing ambiguous about the definition of external debt..

Yeh there is. In your definition it mentions External Debt as the portion that is owed to overseas or international interests.

I am ok with that definition. However, Australian National Debt, as in Sovereign Debt pertaining to the Australian Nation State is 19% of GDP. A portion of that is external and another portion isn't. No problem there.

However, when you say that Australian External Debt is 1.5 Trillion, then you have included the private sector. And that isn't a fair comparison when you are comparing Australia with China anyway, because it is a given that Australia has more private sector debt. Australia is an OECD economy.

And given that you have included private debt, you have not included Australian Savings which are also among the highest in the world because Australian Pension Funds alone amount to 4.5 Trillion. That is just Australian Pension Funds from the Super System. You can't include the one without the other, because these 4.5 Trillion in savings are invested largely overseas and are therefore debts to Australia. Some are invested in International Bonds too.

So what you are doing is cherry picking and manipulating the definition in a very deceptive manner. Not cool.

Paphiti,

you lack key knowledge that makes this a little tiresome. Excellent Pilot mate but you're found a little wanting in macroeconomics.

Still think you're a top bloke...

[Pyrpolizer]

Paphitis,

you're not understanding the definition. External debt does not include debt owed to domestic institutions.

True. He got it from the following misleading/wrong/messy Wiki article, without checking any other source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,

you're not understanding the definition. External debt does not include debt owed to domestic institutions.

True. He got it from the following misleading/wrong/messy Wiki article, without checking any other source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt

The debt posted by you guys does include debt from the private sector.

The definition looks pretty clear to me.

And the Australian Sovereign Debt is NOT 1.5 Trillion or nearly 100% of GDP. The Australian GDP is 1.73 Trillion.

We are not even close to these debt levels.

[Paphitis]

Here you go Paphiti,

As a rule stay away from wiki when trying to understand financial terms

What is External Debt
External debt is the portion of a country's debt that was borrowed from foreign lenders including commercial banks, governments or international financial institutions. These loans, including interest, must usually be paid in the currency in which the loan was made. In order to earn the needed currency, the borrowing country may sell and export goods to the lender's country.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/external-debt.asp

So here we go, changing the goalposts.

That definition is ambiguous. Not very clear as it speaks of a portion of debt. External debt only pertains to the portion that is owed overseas. And given that, if Australia's National Debt is 19% of GDP then External Debt is what is owed by the Government overseas. External Debt plus Foreign Debt is completely different. This includes ALL debts which includes the private sector.

What you linked was not just Government Debt. It was private sector debt as well.

Here are more definitions for you:

External Debt: The amount that a country owes to foreigners, including the debts of both the country's government and its private sector.

http://www.investorwords.com/17580/external_debt.html

Here is another definition:

External debt

External debt is that part of the total debt in a country that is owed to creditors outside the country. The debtors can be the government, corporations or citizens of that country. The debt includes money owed to private commercial banks, other governments, or international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. Note that the use of gross liability figures greatly distorts the ratio for countries which contain major money centers, e.g. United Kingdom, because of London's role as a major money centre. Contrast Net international investment position

https://www.definitions.net/definition/External%20debt

There is nothing ambiguous about the definition of external debt..

Yeh there is. In your definition it mentions External Debt as the portion that is owed to overseas or international interests.

I am ok with that definition. However, Australian National Debt, as in Sovereign Debt pertaining to the Australian Nation State is 19% of GDP. A portion of that is external and another portion isn't. No problem there.

However, when you say that Australian External Debt is 1.5 Trillion, then you have included the private sector. And that isn't a fair comparison when you are comparing Australia with China anyway, because it is a given that Australia has more private sector debt. Australia is an OECD economy.

And given that you have included private debt, you have not included Australian Savings which are also among the highest in the world because Australian Pension Funds alone amount to 4.5 Trillion. That is just Australian Pension Funds from the Super System. You can't include the one without the other, because these 4.5 Trillion in savings are invested largely overseas and are therefore debts to Australia. Some are invested in International Bonds too.

So what you are doing is cherry picking and manipulating the definition in a very deceptive manner. Not cool.

Paphiti,

you lack key knowledge that makes this a little tiresome. Excellent Pilot mate but you're found a little wanting in macroeconomics.

Still think you're a top bloke...

You are being disingenuous DT. I really mean that! Below are official figures from the Australian Federal Government Treasury.

Australia's net government debt as percentage of GDP in the 2016–17 budget was estimated at 18.9% ($326.0 billion); much lower than most developed countries. The budget forecasted that net government debt would increase to $346.8 and $356.4 billion in 2017–18 and 2018–19 respectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia ... nment_debt

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,

you're not understanding the definition. External debt does not include debt owed to domestic institutions.

True. He got it from the following misleading/wrong/messy Wiki article, without checking any other source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt

It isn't misleading at all.

There are many sites that have the exact same definition. The semantics comes from the clever use of the words "portion" and External Debt Vs Foreign Debt.

External Debt is debt owed overseas.

However, your 1.5 trillion figure is external debt owed overseas by Government, non Government, Corporations and private borrowers. In other words, the figure is extremely sullied.

that is the difference.

[DT.]

Stop being such a scatterbrain and lets recap..

I told you China owns 1/3 of your foreign debt. We then spend 4 pages where you tried to convince me wrongly what external debt means despite me giving you clear definitions. Still you chose to go with Wiki.

Now you're calling me disingenuous because Australia you say is not that indebted.

Once again....China....Owns....1/3.....of your foreign debt. Go

[Paphitis]

I did look it up from the very beginning and here it is:

External loan (or foreign debt) is the total debt a country owes to foreign creditors, complemented by internal debt owed to domestic lenders. The debtors can be the government, corporations or citizens of that country. The debt includes money owed to private commercial banks, other governments, or international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank.

So in other words, it is debt owed by a country + internal debt owed to domestic lenders. This is exactly what I said earlier.

The guy who wrote the Wiki article messed everything up by taking the correct Wiki definition of internal debt which is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_debt

Internal debt or domestic debt is the part of the total government debt in a country that is owed to lenders within the country. Internal debt's complement is external debt. Commercial banks, other financial institutions etc. constitute the sources of funds for the internal debts

So he presented you the misleading definition you quoted above, which is basically wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt

You can get the definition of external Debt from countless sources, here's one that's very precise
https://www.focus-economics.com/economi ... ernal-debt

External debt as percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the ratio between the debt a country owes to non-resident creditors and its nominal GDP. External debt is the part of a country’s total debt that was borrowed from foreign lenders, including commercial banks, governments or international financial institutions. Debtors can be individuals, corporations or the government.

Where did you get the 1.5 Trillion from?

These are not the official debt levels of the Australian Government that it releases every 6 months as part of the National Budget.

You included private debt!

Again, the official data from the Australian Government are as follows:

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

The above link is from the Australian Parliament and Treasury Office.

Not just that, but the Government forecasts that Australia's debt will peak at 19.2% and then begin to decline. They are about to declare a surplus now or early next year.

[Pyrpolizer]

And given that you have included private debt, you have not included Australian Savings which are also among the highest in the world because Australian Pension Funds alone amount to 4.5 Trillion. That is just Australian Pension Funds from the Super System. You can't include the one without the other, because these 4.5 Trillion in savings are invested largely overseas and are therefore debts to Australia. Some are invested in International Bonds too.

So what you are doing is cherry picking and manipulating the definition in a very deceptive manner. Not cool.

Not cherry picking at all.
Try for example deducting foreign investment in agricultural land alone in Australia.
11% of your total 353 million hectares agricultural land is owned partly or fully by foreigners.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... enDocument
Let's assume only half is owned fully by foreigners.
That's about 20 million hectares @ $3000 per hectare the lowest, that's 6 trillion meaning your Pension funds get offset by just the agricultural land foreigners own in Australia!!