Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

The existence of some kind of God can not be proven, but can't be 100% disproved either.

The very existence of the universe in all its complexity and glory is more than enough evidence of a supernatural phenomenon at work.

To assume that such magnificent things just happen out of nothing and for no reason, is utter foolishness.

But the Bible and the God it describes have been proven wrong. The God of the bible isn't any more real than the Greek Gods of mount Olympus... just a myth. Believing that the bible contains anything other than myths written by humans is either naive, or something you do because you need to have this faith in order to be happy.

I've been studying the bible and lots of supplementary material ever since I was around 23 and I have yet to form a decision on the bible... so I really don't know how you and Miltiades and many others, can be so swift to dismiss everything with so much certainty.

I mean... it's not like you've spend so much time researching and have arrived at an informed conclusion... I can see from your posts (all of you) that you haven't researched much to have reached that stage (conclusion).

[Sotos]

The existence of some kind of God can not be proven, but can't be 100% disproved either.

The very existence of the universe in all its complexity and glory is more than enough evidence of a supernatural phenomenon at work.

To assume that such magnificent things just happen out of nothing and for no reason, is utter foolishness.

But if God made the universe then who made God? Wouldn't God be even more glorious than the universe? So if you believe that it is foolish to believe that the universe has always existed or came out of nothing because it is magnificent and glorious then using the same logic isn't it even more foolish to believe that there is a God that has always existed and came out of nothing when God should be even more magnificent and glorious than the universe? Clearly your logic fails. At some point you need to accept that something glorious and magnificent can exist without the need to be created. In which case why that something can't be the universe, which we do know for a fact that it exists, but instead something "supernatural" which we have no evidence whatsoever that it even exists? So if you want to call something "God" why not call the universe a God? Because the universe doesn't care about you, and you want a God that does?

But the Bible and the God it describes have been proven wrong. The God of the bible isn't any more real than the Greek Gods of mount Olympus... just a myth. Believing that the bible contains anything other than myths written by humans is either naive, or something you do because you need to have this faith in order to be happy.

I've been studying the bible and lots of supplementary material ever since I was around 23 and I have yet to form a decision on the bible... so I really don't know how you and Miltiades and many others, can be so swift to dismiss everything with so much certainty.

I mean... it's not like you've spend so much time researching and have arrived at an informed conclusion... I can see from your posts (all of you) that you haven't researched much to have reached that stage (conclusion).

You have accused our education system many times in the past, but as you probably know religion is a compulsory subject for all 12 years of our education And some of us have researched the topic a bit further than that also. So we certainly know more than enough. We don't need to know every myth in the bible by heart like maybe you do in order to be able to understand that what it contains are myths. Do you need a PhD in ancient Greek religion to understand that the Gods of Olympus are mythical entities?

[Paphitis]

I tend to believe that religions however, have their place. It is a belief structure and a moral code based on old fashioned values and virtues which should be respected. I am not militantly Atheistic or anything like that. In fact I am not even opposed to the institution of religion and will even support it. I would otherwise be a hypocrite for sending my children to religious schools, and the reason why I do send them to religious schools is because I actually believe in the old fashioned virtues which today's society is trying to destroy.

I am not anti-religion either, as long as there are limits and people do not become fanatics who commit crimes in the name of their God and as long as the Church does not interfere in the running of the State.

But what are those "old fashioned virtues which today's society is trying to destroy" and how are those related to religion? Most of the changes of today vs the past, is urbanization (most people living in big cities as opposed to smaller communities where everybody knew each other), globalization (the spread of ideas and products, both good and bad), and the fact that in the past a lot more of the bad things were simply hidden from public view. Objectively, on the whole, this era is the best era so far. Do you really think that living 50, 100, 200 or 1000 years ago was better than today? For sure it wasn't.

The reason I am not anti-religion is because lots of people simply need religion and they would go mad or fall into depression without it. Religion can be useful.

No of course I do not think it is better to live in the past.

What I am saying is that I tend to like the values of previous generations, like our parents and the generation before them. Some good old fashioned conservatism, respect for other people, kindness, and a good dose of humility. These things seem to be vanishing from current generations. I am not sure.

One of the reasons why I chose private schools, owned by the Church, is because I have concerns over the Government Funded education system and their curricula. I know that things like the Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox Churches will not be socially engineering my children into weird notions of sexualisation, gender questioning, boys can wear skirts or use female toilets and vice versa. Yes this kind of stuff is happening all over the western world.

Now I got no problem with how children identify if that is the case, and I hope that these children always get the support they need, so they don't suicide or something, but sowing the seeds into young and fragile minds at an extremely young age is something I struggle with. Kids should just be kids. We are robbing them of their innocence too.

[Paphitis]

The existence of some kind of God can not be proven, but can't be 100% disproved either.

The very existence of the universe in all its complexity and glory is more than enough evidence of a supernatural phenomenon at work.

To assume that such magnificent things just happen out of nothing and for no reason, is utter foolishness.

But the Bible and the God it describes have been proven wrong. The God of the bible isn't any more real than the Greek Gods of mount Olympus... just a myth. Believing that the bible contains anything other than myths written by humans is either naive, or something you do because you need to have this faith in order to be happy.

I've been studying the bible and lots of supplementary material ever since I was around 23 and I have yet to form a decision on the bible... so I really don't know how you and Miltiades and many others, can be so swift to dismiss everything with so much certainty.

I mean... it's not like you've spend so much time researching and have arrived at an informed conclusion... I can see from your posts (all of you) that you haven't researched much to have reached that stage (conclusion).

No it isn't.

The mere existence of the universe is no evidence at all for the existence of God. This is the default belief of Creationists.

As for coming to conclusions on the Bible. Why not read other books too, like the Koran? Since you are researching about the creation of the universe, why stop at the Bible?

And why would you mock and scoff at all the research emanating from the Science fields and such people as Stephen Hawkins among hundreds of others? Is this how you form an informed conclusion on the creation of the universe? By selecting the sources you want to believe?

You also question the moon landings. Sure, you have a right to do so. But that also makes you quite delusional and furthermore, you are not the kind of person who wants to find the truth or is willing to accept the truth in this instance.

You should get together with Robin Hood. He does this as well.

[Get Real!]

But if God made the universe then who made God? Wouldn't God be even more glorious than the universe? So if you believe that it is foolish to believe that the universe has always existed or came out of nothing because it is magnificent and glorious then using the same logic isn't it even more foolish to believe that there is a God that has always existed and came out of nothing when God should be even more magnificent and glorious than the universe? Clearly your logic fails. At some point you need to accept that something glorious and magnificent can exist without the need to be created. In which case why that something can't be the universe, which we do know for a fact that it exists, but instead something "supernatural" which we have no evidence whatsoever that it even exists? So if you want to call something "God" why not call the universe a God? Because the universe doesn't care about you, and you want a God that does?

God is considered infinite; which means he has no beginning and no end… or no birth and no death if you prefer, so we can’t be asking who made God!

Nobody did because he doesn’t need to be “made”. Is the universe itself God? I don't know...

You have accused our education system many times in the past, but as you probably know religion is a compulsory subject for all 12 years of our education And some of us have researched the topic a bit further than that also. So we certainly know more than enough. We don't need to know every myth in the bible by heart like maybe you do in order to be able to understand that what it contains are myths. Do you need a PhD in ancient Greek religion to understand that the Gods of Olympus are mythical entities?

The Jesus stories you are taught at primary and secondary schools cannot be compared to an adult’s research into the authenticity of the bible which encompasses so much more...

[Get Real!]

As for coming to conclusions on the Bible. Why not read other books too, like the Koran? Since you are researching about the creation of the universe, why stop at the Bible?

Who says I haven't? The Quran was written relatively recently at around 600AD and much of it was pinched directly from the bible.

[Sotos]

But if God made the universe then who made God? Wouldn't God be even more glorious than the universe? So if you believe that it is foolish to believe that the universe has always existed or came out of nothing because it is magnificent and glorious then using the same logic isn't it even more foolish to believe that there is a God that has always existed and came out of nothing when God should be even more magnificent and glorious than the universe? Clearly your logic fails. At some point you need to accept that something glorious and magnificent can exist without the need to be created. In which case why that something can't be the universe, which we do know for a fact that it exists, but instead something "supernatural" which we have no evidence whatsoever that it even exists? So if you want to call something "God" why not call the universe a God? Because the universe doesn't care about you, and you want a God that does?

God is considered infinite; which means he has no beginning and no end… or no birth and no death if you prefer, so we can’t be asking who made God!

Nobody did because he doesn’t need to be “made”. Is the universe itself God? I don't know...

"God is considered infinite" by the religious people. This is a circular reasoning i.e. to believe that "God is infinite" you FIRST have to already believe in God. Can magnificent things exist without being created by something else? Yes or no? If "yes", then the universe doesn't need a creator. If "no", then God must also be created and can't be infinite.

You have accused our education system many times in the past, but as you probably know religion is a compulsory subject for all 12 years of our education And some of us have researched the topic a bit further than that also. So we certainly know more than enough. We don't need to know every myth in the bible by heart like maybe you do in order to be able to understand that what it contains are myths. Do you need a PhD in ancient Greek religion to understand that the Gods of Olympus are mythical entities?

The Jesus stories you are taught at primary and secondary schools cannot be compared to an adult’s research into the authenticity of the bible which encompasses so much more...

It is the exact same stories from the bible I am not saying that somebody can't be an expert in the bible, but somebody can also be an expert in ancient Greek mythology.

[Get Real!]

"God is considered infinite" by the religious people. This is a circular reasoning i.e. to believe that "God is infinite" you FIRST have to already believe in God.

I’ve already mentioned in the past that for an entity to be considered a GOD (scientists also recognize this) it would need to satisfy some basic criteria, including…

* Eternality - Existed forever.
* Omnipresence - Present in all places at all times.
* Omniscience - Possessing infinite knowledge.
* Omnipotence – Having unlimited power.
* Omni-benevolence – Having perfect goodness.

So it’s pointless in asking if God was “made”… as it would fail the basic criteria.

[Sotos]

No of course I do not think it is better to live in the past.

What I am saying is that I tend to like the values of previous generations, like our parents and the generation before them. Some good old fashioned conservatism, respect for other people, kindness, and a good dose of humility. These things seem to be vanishing from current generations. I am not sure.

One of the reasons why I chose private schools, owned by the Church, is because I have concerns over the Government Funded education system and their curricula. I know that things like the Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox Churches will not be socially engineering my children into weird notions of sexualisation, gender questioning, boys can wear skirts or use female toilets and vice versa. Yes this kind of stuff is happening all over the western world.

Now I got no problem with how children identify if that is the case, and I hope that these children always get the support they need, so they don't suicide or something, but sowing the seeds into young and fragile minds at an extremely young age is something I struggle with. Kids should just be kids. We are robbing them of their innocence too.

But if you agree that this era is better than the past ones then how "conservatism" is a good thing? And "respect for other people, kindness, and a good dose of humility" aren't any worst now than they used to be when you are comparing similar situations. Actually what you accuse the western world about "weird notions of sexualisation" is exactly all about kindness and respect to other people. Maybe the current approach isn't the best one, but what is needed is further progress, not conservatism. For example the current approach with genders is to create an ever expanding list of genders... my view is that the concept of recording the gender should just be eliminated all together, and record only the "sex" of each individual at the time of birth and this info should be requested only when it is relevant (e.g. for medical purposes). The toilets issue is even easier to solve: Just stop making those stupid public toilets where the door doesn't reach the floor! Make individual, totally private toilets that anybody can use.

[Sotos]

"God is considered infinite" by the religious people. This is a circular reasoning i.e. to believe that "God is infinite" you FIRST have to already believe in God.

I’ve already mentioned in the past that for an entity to be considered a GOD (scientists also recognize this) it would need to satisfy some basic criteria, including…

* Eternality - Existed forever.
* Omnipresence - Present in all places at all times.
* Omniscience - Possessing infinite knowledge.
* Omnipotence – Having unlimited power.
* Omni-benevolence – Having perfect goodness.

So it’s pointless in asking if God was “made”… as it would fail the basic criteria.

First of all Scientists have nothing to do with any of that. Also, many religions have Gods which are only some or even none of those things. When you create a myth with Gods you can assign whatever powers you want to your Gods. So what you are telling me here is that your religion has created a myth about a single God, and assigned all possible powers to him. OK. So what? It is one thing to create myths about an entity with vast powers, and quite another thing to prove that those claims aren't just a myth. In the end of the day your arguments boils down to "There is a God who is infinite because my religion says so"