Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The accession process has been derailed many times in the past

The accession process just started, how could it have been derailed many time in the past?

Every country follows its interests and has a responsibility to ensure the well being of their own citizens only.

The same goes for Cyprus. The veto that Turkey will receive if she doesn't end the illegalities in Cyprus will not be "half" at all.

You are trying to make it appear as if the accession process is critical for Turkey. It is not that critical.

Your opinion. If Turks are happy to remain third world country and make step backwards in this respect then yes, it is not critical. However I don't think many Turks would be happy with such development.

Turkey expereinced many economic crisis before, which although lead to significant hardship for the turkish nation, never endangered its territorial integrity. Turkey has the biggest army in NATO and is capable of defending itself adequately against any internal or external attack.

Many said this before. Does Turkey have more power that the former USSR?

In fact pople in cyprus were slaves before the ottomans came under the feudal system.

Yes, they were before and during the Ottomans. This has been the case with the many nations that the Ottomans oppressed. However those people didn't just accept to remain slaves, they revolted, they fought against the tyrants and finally they were liberated.
If you brag about the power of Turkey today, then imagine how you would brag about the power of the Ottomans compared to their Greek slaves. Yet, that power was not enough for the Turks to force what was obviously unfair.

[Simon]

Which party is constituted by two people, you and your self!

Kifeas, 'The 80% Party' would logically be supported by all GCs that care about justice for themselves. Don't misunderstand it, 'The 80% Party' does not want partition, it would rather unity, BUT PROPORTIONALITY IS THE OVERRIDING FACTOR. THIS IS WHY, ABOVE ALL ELSE, WE DEMAND 80%.

If the ONLY way for us to get what we are entitled to, is to separate the island 80/20, then this is what should be proposed. I believe this is the only way, as TCs will not accept 80/20 in a BBF, this is clear. However, 80/20 partitioned, well, they seem to like the idea more.

[Simon]

Kifeas said

This country, the whole of it, has been our homeland for 3500 years. Who are you to sign off any part of it now, just because a stronger country invaded and forced you out of it temporarily?

This is not correct. The TCs already own 16.5% of the land, so we are not signing it off, we are just splitting what we have from what they have. If this stalemate continues, I fear that we will not get any land back.

Kifeas, a BBF would have a similar effect anyway, but just done stealthily. In comparison, this would be open and fair to both sides.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas said

This country, the whole of it, has been our homeland for 3500 years. Who are you to sign off any part of it now, just because a stronger country invaded and forced you out of it temporarily?

This is not correct. The TCs already own 16.5% of the land, so we are not signing it off, we are just splitting what we have from what they have. If this stalemate continues, I fear that we will not get any land back.

Kifeas, a BBF would have a similar effect anyway, but just done stealthily. In comparison, this would be open and fair to both sides.

My friend, I do not have time to argue on this issue endlessly and for ever! I said to you the whole of Cyprus belongs to us and is our homeland, and in the same way the whole of it belongs to the Turkish speaking Cypriots as well. Each one of us has his single abstract share of an indivisible entity. The concept of a homeland is not only the plots of property that are situated on the territory of a country, and therefore you just separate them and you say this piece is mine and this piece is yours and this is it. It is many more factors, some of them abstract but nevertheless equally or even more important. It is the historical reality, the historical consciousness of a people, it is the cultural identity consciousness, its the memories, it is the myths and the legends, it is the monuments, the religious sights, the sceneries, the cemeteries where our ancestors are buried and many other issues that are all associated with a place, and all of them together make the place to be regarded as your homeland. All these things cannot be split nor be compensated because they are mostly abstract and not material.

Lastly, our homeland doesn’t belong to us in a material sence! It belongs to our grandchildren who lent it to our grandfathers, who before dyeing entrusted it on us to return it back to its owners! Therefore, we do not have the right to decide what we will do with it, because it doesn’t belong to us materially. It was lent as a whole, it has to be returned to its owners as a whole!

Do you understand now?

[Tony-4497]

The concept of a homeland is not only the plots of property that are situated on the territory of a country, and therefore you just separate them and you say this piece is mine and this piece is yours and this is it.

I don't think you have quite grasped the concept of a BBF with political equality and sovereignty!

The solution plans that our leaders accepted in the past and are currently on the table involve the complete opposite of what you describe above, i.e. 2 separate, politically equal and sovereign states, losely connected at the top. The minute you introduce the concept of SOVEREIGNTY of the TC state, it is then a matter of time before the TC state will be able to do a referendum for full self-determination and become a fully independent state which will be part of the EU and the UN - even if the solution plan says that partition is not allowed. That is why Turkey will not negotiate the concept of sovereignty.

That said, of course, if we accept an Annan-plan type solution, the TC will never choose to become officially independent as through this plan they get all the benefits of independence and then some.. i.e. masters in the north and partners in the south - plus they get us to pay for the whole thing!

[Kifeas]

The concept of a homeland is not only the plots of property that are situated on the territory of a country, and therefore you just separate them and you say this piece is mine and this piece is yours and this is it.

I don't think you have quite grasped the concept of a BBF with political equality and sovereignty!

The solution plans that our leaders accepted in the past and are currently on the table involve the complete opposite of what you describe above, i.e. 2 separate, politically equal and sovereign states, losely connected at the top. The minute you introduce the concept of SOVEREIGNTY of the TC state, it is then a matter of time before the TC state will be able to do a referendum for full self-determination and become a fully independent state which will be part of the EU and the UN - even if the solution plan says that partition is not allowed. That is why Turkey will not negotiate the concept of sovereignty.

Tony, this is precisely why the Annan plan was trashed by us, and that is why we did the proper thing to trash it! Because there were such elements that could be interpreted in the way you say above. Unfortunately, what i said above are things not so easy to be explained to either the TCs or the foreigners, set aside to be understood. Nevertheless, we have no other option or choice than to keep trying. Unfortunately in the north the people have undergone a lot of conditioning regarding the past and what a solution should mean to them, and therefore it is not easy to make them understand the above things I said. Furthermore, there is a proportion of GCs, one of them being you, who have started seen things in a similar way, hence your percentage partition ideas. If you as a GC cannot be convinced and you come up with the ideas you come up, how can we expect to convince anyone else outside?

[Rude Gal]

I said to you the whole of Cyprus belongs to us and is our homeland, and in the same way the whole of it belongs to the Turkish speaking Cypriots as well. Each one of us has his single abstract share of an indivisible entity. The concept of a homeland is not only the plots of property that are situated on the territory of a country, and therefore you just separate them and you say this piece is mine and this piece is yours and this is it. It is many more factors, some of them abstract but nevertheless equally or even more important. It is the historical reality, the historical consciousness of a people, it is the cultural identity consciousness, its the memories, it is the myths and the legends, it is the monuments, the religious sights, the sceneries, the cemeteries where our ancestors are buried and many other issues that are all associated with a place, and all of them together make the place to be regarded as your homeland. All these things cannot be split nor be compensated because they are mostly abstract and not material.

Lastly, our homeland doesn’t belong to us in a material sence! It belongs to our grandchildren who lent it to our grandfathers, who before dyeing entrusted it on us to return it back to its owners! Therefore, we do not have the right to decide what we will do with it, because it doesn’t belong to us materially. It was lent as a whole, it has to be returned to its owners as a whole!

Do you understand now?

Kifeas, time stands still for no man and whatever historical connection/consciousness GCs have to Cyprus needs to be brought into the 21st century. Look at the USA or Australia. Formerly home of Red Indians and Aborigines respectively. Now look at their situations. If your analogy was applied, then all the white people/newcomers in both territories would be out. Is this a realistic proposition? No. Things have moved on. Hurt exists, but we all need to adapt to new realities and not live in some utopian past.

Cyprus is common homeland to two (and more) sets of peoples, Greeks and Turks. If we cannot come to terms with current realities, a two state solution will continue. If we cannot come to terms with pain/trauma of both sides, a two state solution will continue. If we cannot reconcile with our our own hand in history, a two state solution will continue. And if we can't find a mutually acceptable formula for sharing the land/power, a two state solution will continue. And I'm sure that the TRNC will not remain unrecognised indefinitely.

So if your desire is for one State Cyprus to be the common homeland of both TCs and GCs, you need to develop reason and solutions that appeal to BOTH sides. Trust, respect and love need to develop before we all come together as one big happy family. That needs time. Anyone who says otherwise is not being real and therefore not helping.

So be real and move forward, or stay in a timewarp and Cyprus stands still.

We all have the means to make a positive difference for the benefit of all.

Peace.

[Simon]

If we cannot come to terms with current realities, a two state solution will continue. If we cannot come to terms with pain/trauma of both sides, a two state solution will continue. If we cannot reconcile with our our own hand in history, a two state solution will continue. And if we can't find a mutually acceptable formula for sharing the land/power, a two state solution will continue. And I'm sure that the TRNC will not remain unrecognised indefinitely.

So if your desire is for one State Cyprus to be the common homeland of both TCs and GCs, you need to develop reason and solutions that appeal to BOTH sides. Trust, respect and love need to develop before we all come together as one big happy family. That needs time. Anyone who says otherwise is not being real and therefore not helping.

So be real and move forward, or stay in a timewarp and Cyprus stands still.

This is exactly why I proposed the above solution. Cyprus can move on, and then perhaps later look to reunify. Kifeas, when confronted with the harsh realities of the Annan plan, you say, this is why we rejected it. But what I am trying to say to you, is that in any BBF situation, the TCs will never accept proportionality, they have made that clear and this for me has to be the overriding factor. Therefore, if they will accept proportionality with the island being split, then lets do it. You talk as if Cyprus will no longer be our homeland if we do it, and we have betrayed our ancesters etc. But this is rubbish, we will have 80% of the island. At the moment we only have 63%. Think about it.

[lysi]

SIMON, i am pissed off waiting for the return of my and my famillys land and property to be returned by the turks.
The turks are making too much money now from illegal property sales, casinos, brothels and the heroin trade to want to hand back anything.
The turks know that the g/cypriots are all talk and no action.

[Simon]

lysi, tell me what the most efficient course of action would be to take in your view? We can protest on the streets, but this isn't getting us nowhere. Going into estate agents, property developers etc and complaining isn't going to change anything.

In my opinion, there are only two options. 1) To continue to allow our President to negotiate with the TCs, or 2) Restart the war. The former we are already doing. So what other action do you propose that we take? Unless you believe that we should start the latter? Do you?