Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

Kifeas, what we are arguing about now are to me the minor details, which can be discussed. Obviously, the loans, debts, agreements etc, that the ROC has can stay with the nw state. The ROC could sign a declaration stating that this is a new state, with all the old agreements etc of the old state still in force. This is just a theoretical point and could easily be resolved in my opinion.

Apart from this, can I get a consensus on whether people agree with the actual principle. I understand Piratis does and a few others including Big Turk agrees.

The citizenship issue could easily be resolved. TCs wouldn't want to be in the Greek south, but the Turkish north obviously. So their citizenship rights could be waved on their permission. For example, it could be in the referendum question that if TCs accepted the proposal, it would mean they are no longer citizens of the south. It is as simple as that. I believe this is definately workable and fair, although I know it is not ideal - it is the best I think we can hope for, for the time-being.

[cypezokyli]

when all of you decide to split it all , let us know.
we are planning to proclaim the republic of paphos together with bir and alexios.
the island will be divided in three.
the gcs that want to live alone - south.
the tcs that want to live alone - north.
those who want to live together - paphos.
it is time for us to let the public know what we believe in :

WE demand our right for self-determination.
WE believe that living together with gcs or tcs who want to live alone is likely to cause problems in the future. in order for us to be able to live together with these classes of gcs and tcs, we need a certian time of peaceful cooperation as good neighbours.
WE believe this is a fair solution for everyone.
WE believe that as citizens of cyprus, we have the right of our own choice.
WE dont believe that we can live together with the other two categories of cypriots

therefore

WE propose, a referendum in order to determine how many people in cyprus want to find themselves in which republic. according to the percentage we will receive WE are going to demand the necessary land adjustments.

in case our demands are not satisfied,
WE will continue our struggle with any means we consider appropriate. the new EOPA - PMT organization will represent us until our concerns are accepted.

ELEFTERIA STI PAPHO
FREEDOM TO PAPHOS

[bg_turk]

The RoC is a legal entity and a subject of international law, and cannot be dissolved!

You are acting stupid now. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, USSR were all subjects of international law, and they clearly could be dissolved. The RoC can be dissolved too, and since it at the moment is purely a greek run state, most of its rights and obligations under international law will go to the new greek state in the south. It is competely your won business whether you choose to give it the name RoC, as is the issue of citizenship. You are welcome to keep the citizenship of TCs, it will be your internal affair as far as I am concerned.

[Kifeas]

Change that 20% to 18% (or 18.4% as Kiffeas said) and I could agree. Resources and coastline should also be split on this ratio though.

Besides the coastlines which I agree with Piratis should be adjusted to reflect this ratio, before determining the percentage of territory, we have to subtract from the total of Cyprus the 3% of the territory that the sovereign British Bases occupy, and then base our calculation on the 97% of Cyprus. Therefore, the 18.4% is automatically reduced to 17.8% of the territory. However, if we assume that let's say 30% of the TCs will wish to retain their RoC citizenship and remain where they are now without having to be moved (displaced,) then this percentage should be reduced by 30% also. This means that it has to become 12.5% of the total territory, and therefore the coastline should be adjusted to this percentage also.

However, as I said before, I personally do not subscribe to partition as a solution to the Cyprus problem, even though this will mean that the TC partioned state will be reduced to 12% or even 6% of the total.

[Simon]

cypezokyli it is already split. ALL YOU RHETORIC SOUNDS GOOD BUT IS GETTING US NOWHERE. This is a solution which could take us forward before a final solution. Why can't you see this. What you say sounds nice, but it won't work because the two sides can't agree and live together at the moment.

What I'm saying is that this solution would sort out all property disputes etc, normalise the relations between the two, and then joining us looks more realistic. It is as simple as that.

[bg_turk]

Change that 20% to 18% (or 18.4% as Kiffeas said) and I could agree. Resources and coastline should also be split on this ratio though.

Besides the coastlines which I agree with Piratis should be adjusted to reflect this ratio, before determining the percentage of territory, we have to subtract from the total of Cyprus the 3% of the territory that the sovereign British Bases occupy, and then base our calculation on the 97% of Cyprus. Therefore, the 18.4% is automatically reduced to 17.8% of the territory. However, if we assume that let's say 30% of the TCs will wish to retain their RoC citizenship and remain where they are now without having to be moved (displaced,) then this percentage should be reduced by 30% also. This means that it has to become 12.5% of the total territory, and therefore the coastline should be adjusted to this percentage also.

On the contrary I believe the TRNC should not yield any territory at all. GCs that wish to return to their former homes should be welcomed as citizens of the new state in the north. Besides in view of your strict division of the islands territory in view of population, the addition of greek cypriots to the current population will justify the larger territory of the northern state.

[Kifeas]

The RoC is a legal entity and a subject of international law, and cannot be dissolved!

You are acting stupid now. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, USSR were all subjects of international law, and they clearly could be dissolved. The RoC can be dissolved too, and since it at the moment is purely a greek run state, most of its rights and obligations under international law will go to the new greek state in the south. It is competely your won business whether you choose to give it the name RoC, as is the issue of citizenship. You are welcome to keep the citizenship of TCs, it will be your internal affair as far as I am concerned.

We are saying the same thing essentially, but with different words. Some new entity will have to undertake the international rights and obligations of the RoC. The same goes for the citizenship obligations towards its own citizens. No UN and EU member state (or an evolution of that state) has the right to unilaterally wave any one single citizen's rights, without their own individual consent. If any TC, because by being a RoC citizen is at the same time an EU citizen and doesn't wish to loose this status, the RoC (or the continuation entity) cannot force him to loose this status. It is not a right that the RoC has, but an obligation which is based on international and EU laws. It is an individual right which cannot be waved, even if the majority of the TCs will choose through a referendum to have partition as the solution to the Cyprus problem. The TC community as a whole cannot decide for the rights of each individual TC citizen. If for example the majority of the TCs decide in a referendum that the TC community must commit suicide, it doesn’t mean that every individual TC is obliged to follow this path, or that he/she can be forced to do so.

[cypezokyli]

cypezokyli it is already split. ALL YOU RHETORIC SOUNDS GOOD BUT IS GETTING US NOWHERE. This is a solution which could take us forward before a final solution. Why can't you see this. What you say sounds nice, but it won't work because the two sides can't agree and live together at the moment.

What I'm saying is that this solution would sort out all property disputes etc, normalise the relations between the two, and then joining us looks more realistic. It is as simple as that.

do you support the republic of paphos simon?

[Simon]

Of course not, you're being totally stupid now. I only want reasonable suggestions. What I say is a solution, what you say is not. Do you prefer us to be split as we are today with everybody's human rights being violated. What is the republic of Paphos going to achieve? Haven't you been listening to the majority of TCs? They obviously don't trust us and don't want to live with us unless they have a VETO on everything. It will not work. My solution will create trust, peace etc, before we can continue to move forward. You cannot re-unite without trust, and at the moment we don't have trust.

Next you'll be suggesting every town shall be separate. Understand a solution, even if it is not ideal.

[Piratis]

GCs that wish to return to their former homes should be welcomed as citizens of the new state in the north. Besides in view of your strict division of the islands territory in view of population, the addition of greek cypriots to the current population will justify the larger territory of the northern state.

And because those GCs have been murdered, ethnically cleansed and prosecuted in the past, in order to guarantee their safety they should be given 50% power and their own federal state within this "TRNC". Of course the name should change also because GCs do not accept to live in a state called "Turkish", Greek should be an official language etc.