Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

What a high level discussion from two intellectuals, congrats guys!

I have to disagree. I'll go as far as to say you are patronizing erolz.

From what I have read (excuse me, but not detailed), it seems Sotos is reasoning from logic and facts and erolz is waffling with words and attempts at rewriting facts with his own warped opinions.

In other words, Sotos is speaking from experience and learning and erolz is speaking form second hand news and .... well .... a desire to change things for the better for Turks.

No one speaks from experience. It is clear they both learned what they talked about, from books and personal research. I don't have any issues against erolz hence I really can't find any flaws to the way he presents his arguments.

I congratulated both guys equally. My stepping in a couple of times agreeing with erolz should not be confused as "patronizing". It is simple encouragement to a person who clearly excels in intellect among the TC community.. And yes I find it more useful to encourage a person from the other community when our views come close (in this case erolz) rather than encourage a person from my community (in this case Sotos) with which our views were always close anyway.

I haven't seen anyone of you stepping in and encouraging erolz for anything even for this revolutionary view quoted below.
I would like to learn why. Is it because he is evil and everything he says is wrong?? Is it because he is THE enemy??
Is it because he lives in the occupied and knows nothing beyond the occupation??

For what it worth I today do believe that continuing to try and reach agreement based on BBF is a dead end and that actually such efforts are more destructive to the chance of us ever finding a way out of the mess we are in than constructive. For me as a TC that wants and has always wanted a 'better' Cyprus than the current one I do today think my 'job' within my own community is to support the idea of an agreement based on a direct move from where we are today to a unitary state.

[erolz66]

Haters gonna hate

[GreekIslandGirl]

I find it more useful to encourage a person from the other community when our views come close (in this case erolz) rather than encourage a person from my community (in this case Sotos) with which our views were always close anyway.

How many times has erolz supported the idea of a truly democratic Cyprus? Saying 'unified', and yet criticizing (in a heavily disguised form) anything other than continuing to give TCs more power per person than anyone else is not 'close' to my views.

Like many who try to protect their ill-gotten gains, he can only call others 'hater' just because we want *fairness* through equality and human rights for all.

[Sotos]

How many times has erolz supported the idea of a truly democratic Cyprus? Saying 'unified', and yet criticizing (in a heavily disguised form) anything other than continuing to give TCs more power per person than anyone else is not 'close' to my views.

I think his post on the previous page was very clear and nothing could be disguised in there. I also had disagreements on fundamental issues with erlolz previously, but at this point I think we are on agreement on what is important and any differences on this issue are now minor ones, probably less than the differences I have with many GCs.

If we are going to attack somebody because we disagreed with him in the past, then what is the point of debating? Shouldn't the point being that we we try to convince others of our views, while at the same time keeping an open mind and be ready to be convinced as well? Many of us are here for over a decade, and... especially for those of us who started relatively young... it is positive to have our views change as we grow older, learn new things and understand things better. Those that don't do this are probably close minded people, unwilling to challenge their own views.

[erolz66]

Like many who try to protect their ill-gotten gains, he can only call others 'hater' just because we want *fairness* through equality and human rights for all.

Theory 1 - I call GiG a hater because she wants '"fairness* through equality and human rights for all' in Cyprus and I just want to keep my ill gotten gains.

Theory 2 - I call GiG a hater because her behaviour here on this forum is consistently consistent with the definition of hater in the linked to website.

Test for theory 1 - how many other people who also want (or claim to want) '*fairness* through equality and human rights for all' have I labeled a 'hater' ?

Test for theory 2 - how many times has GiG found a reason to express public dislike for me no matter how stupid that reason may be ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

... to express public dislike for me no matter how stupid that reason may be ?

Oh, poor 'lil you! Says the hysterical man who has gone overboard with exclamations of my being filled with 'hate' just because I told Pyro I didn't agree with his assessment.

As usual, these debates become a self-congratulatory, virtue-signalling male 'bonding' showground.

If we are going to attack somebody because we disagreed with him in the past,

Show me where there was an attack. There are all sorts of disagreements and I also disagreed. Why is my contribution labelled an attack?

any differences on this issue are now minor ones

I don't know about you, but there are certain fundamental truths (even if they were in the 'past'), codes such as democracy and equality, that can not be swept aside because someone has glossed over 'differences' by simply using the word 'unitary'.

He's fooled Pyro many times, he's fooled you now too, I see. These newcomers to the occupied north are no different to the invading Colonial Brits that destroyed Cyprus in the first place - their purpose is one of continuation of the erosion of our historical identity and of us as individuals with equal status.

[Get Real!]

I see that Erol the poo-pants is at it again!

Catch you people later...

[Sotos]

Show me where there was an attack. There are all sorts of disagreements and I also disagreed. Why is my contribution labelled an attack?

You said: "erolz is waffling with words and attempts at rewriting facts with his own warped opinions" without explaining why. If you disagree with what he said, then you should say where exactly you disagree and say your own opinion. To make a statement like that and not explain why, is just an attack.

I don't know about you, but there are certain fundamental truths (even if they were in the 'past'), codes such as democracy and equality, that can not be swept aside because someone has glossed over 'differences' by simply using the word 'unitary'.

He's fooled Pyro many times, he's fooled you now too, I see. These newcomers to the occupied north are no different to the invading Colonial Brits that destroyed Cyprus in the first place - their purpose is one of continuation of the erosion of our historical identity and of us as individuals with equal status.

He didn't just say the word "unitary". He said:

In the past I had said that I personally would be willing to accept a solution with no bizonality and no bi communality and with the provision that only decision that were determined overwhelming as a result of which community you belonged to would require separate consent of each community, or at least a minimum consent of 25-30% from each as well as over all majority. Today I do not just accept no bi zonality or communality but advocate for such specifically as a preferred option to BBF based solution with no provision other than perhaps that 'Cyprus will be ruled by Cypriots' and that any abrogation to this and this alone would require separate consent.

I can't be fooled by empty words and slogans, which is why I don't buy the empty slogans of "unification", "solution", "liberation" etc of the so-called "pro-solution" camp. I always look at the content and not merely the label, and erolz didn't just use the word "unitary" but he was sufficiently specific about the content of how he now wants this unitary state to be, and it is a way that I totally agree with.

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh, poor 'lil you! Says the hysterical man who has gone overboard with exclamations of my being filled with 'hate' just because I told Pyro I didn't agree with his assessment.

As usual, these debates become a self-congratulatory, virtue-signalling male 'bonding' showground.

Oh come on, I 've stood by your side countless of times like you did as well, not because you are a woman, but because you are generally a sensible and clever person. However erolz is also a clever and sensible person how can I not stand by him when I feel it's right to do so?

It is clear that you and erolz have issues against each other that I never managed to understand, but I think it's unfair from you two to mess us in your personal vendetta.In this particular topic I did not say anything against you, I just encouraged erolz and you said I was "patronizing" him against Sotos... That was clearly unfair.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I don't have ANY 'personal' issues with erolz. Stop minimizing my stance.

I can see through his crap!

My values haven't changed - and discussions with erolz have never shaken them (you seem to have a problem with that) - Cyprus for me should be allowed to evolve into the democratic state to which it has been denied before. When something is right, like democracy and individual human rights, it's not up for dilution to suit some .... "community" ....... that has it great now in the occupied north and yet is hoping for even more than that, great and 'recognized'.

Erolz has NEVER shown any signs of supporting my (quite ordinary) views on democracy. We have opposing views, you see. Why is that so hard to accept? Dilute your values if you want, but don't expect others to do the same because some of us are not as easily flattered by his words as you (Pyro) and Sotos seem to be.