Cyprus-Forum.com

[Robin Hood]

Oh silly me....but I don't really read your posts!

But you are right, the Tomahawks really do work. There is a big enough track record that proves this beyond any doubt.

What I would like to know now is whether the S400 actually works because there is no evidence or track record that it does.

Maybe because the Russians do not keep invading sovereign states or interfering militarily in other peoples conflicts all over the World? They surround Moscow ..... so if you want to see them in action try flying whatever it is you fly, or even a Tomahawk .... toward the Kremlin!

[Paphitis]

Are you sure about that?

The Russians were involved in Korea, Vietnam, and even had an Afghan War of more than 10 years. lately, they have invaded Ukraine, and South Ossetia.

there are not many documented instances of Western Air Defences ever being tested lately either. the last time was the Scud Missiles from Iraq if I am not mistaken, but Syrian Airspace is being tested on a daily basis.

Everyday, Coalition and even Israeli Aircraft are flying over Syria. the Israelis are even attacking Syrian airports, facilities and weapons facilities as well as Chemical sites. There was even a Cruise Missile attack.

but not one single bit of evidence that the S300 and S400 is actually able to operate in an ECM environment. No lock ons. perhaps because they know Israel will respond with HARM and puff goes the S400. And puff go billions worth of sales.

I told everyone before, that there better be a really good reason to even turn the S400 on. Just getting up the Americans isn't a good enough reason because the risks are far greater for the Russians. There isn't even a demonstration of what they can do.

[Pyrpolizer]

It's (TERCOM) used once it crosses the shoreline. DSMAC is what guides the missile to the target and through the window (it's that accurate).

It seems you think all types of navigation of those missiles are used simultaneously.
This is not true, otherwise the missile would get terribly confused.
The first choice is always the GPS. INS steps in to check the reliability of the GPS signal. So second best options is always the INS.
TERCOM is mainly used to adjust the altitude, but it can be used for navigation albeit it's very slow and inaccurate. INS is what's used almost exclusively when the GPS signal get jammed. And finally DSMAC to pinpoint the hit on the target.
You may be fascinated by hearing the missile has so many navigation capabilities, but the truth INS is it's second best choice but rather inaccurate, whereas the other two methods were used in the past, got abandoned because they were very inaccurate plus the computers couldn't handle them fast enough. They just re-introduced them as soon as the computers became fast enough to handle them but they are still rather decorative sort of last resort to save the missile from getting lost.

And I am not sure where you get your information from. But if their flight time was only 15 minutes, then they would have covered only 135 nms at 9 miles per minute.

The nearest target was in fact about 230 Km, so indeed 15-20 minutes were needed. Imagine how much longer they were traveling to reach the other targets. I just wanted to point to you that those missiles were traveling for a considerable time, and despite their low altitude they could in fact be traced.

Some, if not most, were launched from the Mediterranean somewhere between Cyprus and Egypt.

the map I posted earlier shows the position of the ship in the sea north west of Lebanon.

A few were launched from B1 Bombers.

So some must have had a flying time of far more than 15 minutes.

But what is especially very impressive, is the way they coordinate all the Tomahawks, JASSM and Shadow to arrive all at the same time in a 2 tap configuration. All the launches would have been sequenced and the Missiles themselves can navigate to their target via a set of waypoints or some grid sectors on their moving terrain map.

hint: take snapshots while traveling at 750 Km/Hr pass them in any I7 computer and ask it to compare them with terrain photos already in memory and if it won't burn in a minute, GR will replace it free of charge for you. The process is slow, not very reliable, and most of the times can't deliver anything.

It's amazing how it all works.

Yes!

But what is apparent to anyone is the fact that these Missiles do not rely on GPS and have a number of redundancies built in, such as DSMAC, which is something I never heard of before.

Yes!

I do know however that the Tornado, and the F-111 do not rely on GPS. They use it when they can if they have the RAIM (Integrity Check) but they follow a terrain following rada or moving contour map and plot themselves as they go and it flies the aircraft too like it flies the Cruise Missile.

[Robin Hood]

Are you sure about that?

The Russians were involved in Korea, Vietnam, and even had an Afghan War of more than 10 years. lately, they have invaded Ukraine, and South Ossetia.

The first three were the USSR ... not the Russian Federation!

Ukraine .... foreign organised coup (USA) ..... autonomous region ..... voted on independence from a State run by an illegitimate government...... exercised the UN Charter right to Self Determination ..... then held a referendum and overwhelmingly voted for asking for their newly created State to be taken into the Russian Federation .... and Russia agreed. So where is this aggression?

South Osettia was protected by a small Russian peace keeping force as Georgia was threatening them ...... Georgia then attacked South Osettia, killed a lot of Russian peace keepers and over 2000 South Osettian civilians when they bombed the capital. Russia responded within hours and kicked the Georgians ass and after a few days left Georgia smoldering. It was at that point the US started with the accusations of Russian aggression, as usual they ignored the cause. Both the UN and the EU set up enquiries and both blamed Georgia for starting the conflict. So where is the Russian aggression?

there are not many documented instances of Western Air Defences ever being tested lately either. the last time was the Scud Missiles from Iraq if I am not mistaken, but Syrian Airspace is being tested on a daily basis.

..... and even an old fashioned Scud got through to Israel I believe?

Everyday, Coalition and even Israeli Aircraft are flying over Syria. the Israelis are even attacking Syrian airports, facilities and weapons facilities as well as Chemical sites. There was even a Cruise Missile attack.

Please check previous explanation .... or was it too complex for you to understand?

but not one single bit of evidence that the S300 and S400 is actually able to operate in an ECM environment. No lock ons. perhaps because they know Israel will respond with HARM and puff goes the S400. And puff go billions worth of sales.

The S-400 can take out HARM as well ....... refer to the video!

I told everyone before, that there better be a really good reason to even turn the S400 on. Just getting up the Americans isn't a good enough reason because the risks are far greater for the Russians. There isn't even a demonstration of what they can do.

You tell people a lot of things ...... much of it ill informed personal opinion with little or no credibility !

[Pyrpolizer]

There are all kinds of inbuilt safeguards.

The Missile has to acquire a target, before the warhead is armed is one such mechanism. If there is no target, then the Missile will not hit. The target would have been uploaded beforehand and the Tercom would have to successfuly prosecute that target.

The missiles can also be scuttled by the Americans, or destroyed before they get to a target for whatever reason.

This one caught my attention.
So assuming the missiles were diverted from target by the Russians would the Americans destroy them?
I understand this destruction is done via a signal to self -detonate right?

[yialousa1971]

Syrian Army hands over two intact US cruise missiles that failed to detonate to Russian military – reports

By
Andrew Illingworth
19/04/2018


BEIRUT, LEBANON (7:05 A.M.) – According to the TASS news agency claiming to cite a source in the Syrian Ministry of Defense, the Syrian Army has handed over two intact US cruise missiles to the Russian military.

The cruise missiles in question had been used to attack Syria during a US-led strike operation against Syrian military targets on April 14, however, failed to detonate for unknown reasons.

The captured missiles were reportedly delivered to Russian military forces in Syria on April 17 and have since been transferred to Russia via plane as of April 18. TASS says that the Russian Ministry of Defence has not commented as of this time.

The failure of the missiles to detonate can likely be put down to one of two things; first, general operational failure or, second, failure due to jamming by electronic warfare systems.

https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/article ... y-reports/

[Paphitis]

It's (TERCOM) used once it crosses the shoreline. DSMAC is what guides the missile to the target and through the window (it's that accurate).

It seems you think all types of navigation of those missiles are used simultaneously.
This is not true, otherwise the missile would get terribly confused.
The first choice is always the GPS. INS steps in to check the reliability of the GPS signal. So second best options is always the INS.
TERCOM is mainly used to adjust the altitude, but it can be used for navigation albeit it's very slow and inaccurate. INS is what's used almost exclusively when the GPS signal get jammed. And finally DSMAC to pinpoint the hit on the target.
You may be fascinated by hearing the missile has so many navigation capabilities, but the truth INS is it's second best choice but rather inaccurate, whereas the other two methods were used in the past, got abandoned because they were very inaccurate plus the computers couldn't handle them fast enough. They just re-introduced them as soon as the computers became fast enough to handle them but they are still rather decorative sort of last resort to save the missile from getting lost.

And I am not sure where you get your information from. But if their flight time was only 15 minutes, then they would have covered only 135 nms at 9 miles per minute.

The nearest target was in fact about 230 Km, so indeed 15-20 minutes were needed. Imagine how much longer they were traveling to reach the other targets. I just wanted to point to you that those missiles were traveling for a considerable time, and despite their low altitude they could in fact be traced.

Some, if not most, were launched from the Mediterranean somewhere between Cyprus and Egypt.

the map I posted earlier shows the position of the ship in the sea north west of Lebanon.

A few were launched from B1 Bombers.

So some must have had a flying time of far more than 15 minutes.

But what is especially very impressive, is the way they coordinate all the Tomahawks, JASSM and Shadow to arrive all at the same time in a 2 tap configuration. All the launches would have been sequenced and the Missiles themselves can navigate to their target via a set of waypoints or some grid sectors on their moving terrain map.

hint: take snapshots while traveling at 750 Km/Hr pass them in any I7 computer and ask it to compare them with terrain photos already in memory and if it won't burn in a minute, GR will replace it free of charge for you. The process is slow, not very reliable, and most of the times can't deliver anything.

It's amazing how it all works.

Yes!

But what is apparent to anyone is the fact that these Missiles do not rely on GPS and have a number of redundancies built in, such as DSMAC, which is something I never heard of before.

Yes!

I do know however that the Tornado, and the F-111 do not rely on GPS. They use it when they can if they have the RAIM (Integrity Check) but they follow a terrain following rada or moving contour map and plot themselves as they go and it flies the aircraft too like it flies the Cruise Missile.

You are completely wrong. The Guidance systems are all used simultaneously, but they can also be standalone. The Tomahawk does not need GPS at all to reach its target. In fact, the Tomahawk does not use GPS at all because its integrity can't be guaranteed, but they have the option of using GPS when they are targeting certain threats like terrorists. They do not use it with a technologically advance opponent.

GPS isn't the preferred method. I thought it was too, but the main guidance system is the TERCOM and the DSMAC, or the 3D imaging. That is how the Tomahawk gets its accuracy and even finds the target.

TERCOM is not only used to adjust altitude. It is also used to plot the missile on a moving 3D contour map with total precision.

[Paphitis]

There are all kinds of inbuilt safeguards.

The Missile has to acquire a target, before the warhead is armed is one such mechanism. If there is no target, then the Missile will not hit. The target would have been uploaded beforehand and the Tercom would have to successfuly prosecute that target.

The missiles can also be scuttled by the Americans, or destroyed before they get to a target for whatever reason.

This one caught my attention.
So assuming the missiles were diverted from target by the Russians would the Americans destroy them?
I understand this destruction is done via a signal to self -detonate right?

No not very likely.

And there is no way the missiles can be diverted. You need to read the link I posted earlier. These Cruise Missiles have their own inbuilt and self contained guidance systems. GPS is only one part of that and it isn't the main means of navigation and it certainly does not guide the missile onto the target.

There are so many aircraft that use TERCOM. The F111 was one and the Tornado is another. The Russians are unable to divert them.

Watch from 12 minutes onwards. 26 minutes for how it prosecutes the target. It describes the weapon as more like an Aircraft rather than a Missile.

[Paphitis]

Syrian Army hands over two intact US cruise missiles that failed to detonate to Russian military – reports

By
Andrew Illingworth
19/04/2018


BEIRUT, LEBANON (7:05 A.M.) – According to the TASS news agency claiming to cite a source in the Syrian Ministry of Defense, the Syrian Army has handed over two intact US cruise missiles to the Russian military.

The cruise missiles in question had been used to attack Syria during a US-led strike operation against Syrian military targets on April 14, however, failed to detonate for unknown reasons.

The captured missiles were reportedly delivered to Russian military forces in Syria on April 17 and have since been transferred to Russia via plane as of April 18. TASS says that the Russian Ministry of Defence has not commented as of this time.

The failure of the missiles to detonate can likely be put down to one of two things; first, general operational failure or, second, failure due to jamming by electronic warfare systems.

https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/article ... y-reports/

I wouldn't take any of this nonsense into consideration. In fact, it is very desperate.

Firstly, no photographs were released. therefore, no evidence. There is no proof that the Syrians have these 2 missiles. it is unlike the Syrians or the Russians to not parade any pictures of these missiles. We need to see evidence.

It's of course not impossible that 2 missiles may have completely failed. In the gulf War, there were 6 Tomahawks that had failed out of a total of about 390 missiles that were launched.

But unless there is evidence, then it is propaganda.

like there is no evidence that 71 out of 103 didn't make their targets. If that is the case, the Syrians should have far more than 2 missiles.

[Londonrake]

It seems pretty simple to me.

The Kremlin issued lots of bellicose, dire warnings about any Western action in Syria. Echoed by the faithful (and BBC ). It would be WW3! Ships and aircraft would be targeted! People here would be panic shopping. DEFCON 1!

What happened at the event. Zilch. Egg on face?

How to save it.................... face.

Mmmmmm. Let's push the line - the attack was pathetic. Most of the missiles were shot down. It wasn't even worth using our Dan Dare super-weapons (except perhaps - looks both ways - shhhhhhh! - the death ray). Troll, troll, troll.

Faithfully picked up and re-transmitted by the useful idiots network.

You guys have my respect. You'd got it all figured out over breakfast the next day.

Putin's slipping. He's lost most of his int network over something as pathetically insignificant as the Skripals. Now he's shown for the paper tiger that Russia is in Syria.

Russia isn't about to go to war with NATO over Syria. It's all BS. Who would he sell his main export to? China? Yep - we'll give you half price.

Incoming!!!!!!!!