Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

On another site I frequent, someone convinced me of the Skripal perpetrator with this simple one liner...

“If it were Russia, they'd be dead.”

Bloody good point I thought!

[Paphitis]

On another site I frequent, someone convinced me of the Skripal perpetrator with this simple one liner...

“If it were Russia, they'd be dead.”

Bloody good point I thought!

They are as good as dead!

There is no recovery for Skripal and his daughter.

[Robin Hood]

On another site I frequent, someone convinced me of the Skripal perpetrator with this simple one liner...

“If it were Russia, they'd be dead.”

Bloody good point I thought!

They are as good as dead!

Is that your expert opinion? I didn't realize you were also a fully qualified toxicologist!

[Robin Hood]

Londonrake: To answer your question .........

A question. I've followed all of your posts over the last few years where you have ardently supported President Putin and all of his actions. I can't recall a single occasion in all of that time where absolutely anything he's done has elicited a shred of criticism or even doubt on your part. You seem to have basically echoed absolutely everything that has come out of Moscow. Verbatim. Wrong?

YES .... wrong!

The problem with your argument in this and other instances, is that you have come to a conclusion and are trying to fit it up with ‘evidence’ to support it, which so far you don’t have. Unfortunately for you, it doesn’t work that way!

Our minds work on two different principals. In your life primarily you carried out instructions and had no power to contest or object to those instructions. You have admitted before that you could not have a functional military where every Tom, Dick and Harry had his own opinion and could question those orders. That very obviously would not work irrespective of the doctrine being followed. The only way that can be achieved and to get everyone on the same page is to destroy any preconceived ideas or original thinking. I am not saying they are turned into zombies but they all must think using the same doctrine.

We see that today not only in the military but in religions ..... any religion and of course politics. I see no logical description for that process other than brain washing.

In my life I was given a Project Specification, from that I would prepare a Scope of Work, do the design and get the drawings prepared. I would liaise with others to fit my bit into their bit so that the end result met the specification. If I thought that within the sphere of my own discipline a particular part of the specification was wrong I would say so. Minor points covered by a memo to a counterpart in another discipline or, on bigger issues, by convening a higher level meeting to discuss problems and solutions.

So in my world I look at the details and the 'what if’s'. I doubt that in your life you would have had the authority or the leeway I had to make any significant changes. To make changes you need evidence to demonstrate why you believe you were right and the specification was incorrect. I look for details that says something does not look right and trace them back to the origin. I think I would be correct in saying you never had that authority?

In your analogy, what in précis you are saying is how would I respond if the boot was on the other foot?

I can assure you I would react in exactly the same way, that is the way my mind works...... keep digging into the detail ..... because it is maybe just one small detail that defines the solution. Without the detail you cannot make a decision and that is what is happening in the Skripal case and your inverse Hypothesis. We don’t know the detail, therefore we have little evidence, therefore we can come to no reasoned conclusion. I don’t accept the principal of the evidence being withheld for security reasons ..... that is a cop-out to cover the lack of evidence and is not how the Law works .... you have the statutory rules of disclosure!

In this case there is one glaring anomaly which destroys the credibility of the official story. Again, no expertise required just an enquiring mind that sees there is a problem with the story.

We have been told these people were the victims of an attack by persons so far unidentified, with an extremely toxic agent that even in miniscule doses kills in minutes. We are told by Porton Down there is no antidote. If that is so why are these three people who were directly contaminated, not dead? In fact they are recovering with the policeman walking around and recovering at home, Yulia is awake, eating and talking and Sergei is stable. By all we have been told about this stuff that May/Jonson says is made by Russia (Actually the USSR some 40 years ago) WHY ARE THEY NOT DEAD? Can you explain that?

If were in Mays position I would be demanding an answer because what I was telling the World is obviously not possible. In fact if I were in her position I would have kept my mouth shut until I had evidence. The British government has made itself look rather silly because they accused Russia, even the Russian President, of something they really knew sod all about. Just like you they ‘know’ who did it, they just need to find some evidence to prove it! Johnson said in a DW TV interview that Porton Down had told him ".... absolutely, no shadow of doubt that it came from Russia!". He lied! Innocent until proven guilty,is the very basis of Law and has been flaunted by the UK Government?

That to me says that Porton Down may have identified Novichoc from a sample but very obviously it could not have been that agent which poisoned them ......... based on logic would you not agree with that?

As for seeming to favour Russia; it is because time and time again, once you get down to the detail they appear to be more in compliance with Intl. Law, the UN Charter and Conventions than the US coalition. My view is not driven by indoctrinated propaganda, as very clearly yours is, because I have never been brain washed. I make up my own mind based on the credibility of the evidence irrespective of the source.

Both you and Paphitis when Russia is mentioned immediately quote Crimea, Georgia and Sth Ossetia ........ but have you ever actually looked at the evidence from both sides, in detail?

Assad and his supposed use of Sarin to kill his own people in 2013 and last year? Is that really credible? Look at the sources of the accusation and the ‘evidence’ ..... it all comes from the very terrorists that the US is supporting! It suits the West to believe what the terrorists tell them without digging too deeply for hard evidence. The terrorists have everything to gain from not telling the truth and Assad has everything to lose if it were true. The accusation does not hold water. But, you are happy to accept that scenario without question, even in the Skripal case ...... ..... I am not.

...... and that is why we do not see eye-to-eye!

[Get Real!]

On another site I frequent, someone convinced me of the Skripal perpetrator with this simple one liner...

“If it were Russia, they'd be dead.”

Bloody good point I thought!

They are as good as dead!

There is no recovery for Skripal and his daughter.

Then how come she’s issuing statements?

http://www.euronews.com/2018/04/05/yuli ... ent-attack

[Robin Hood]

On another site I frequent, someone convinced me of the Skripal perpetrator with this simple one liner...

“If it were Russia, they'd be dead.”

Bloody good point I thought!

They are as good as dead!

There is no recovery for Skripal and his daughter.

Then how come she’s issuing statements?

http://www.euronews.com/2018/04/05/yuli ... ent-attack

The Russians are asking the British about the antidote! So far the British have ignored them. Obviously.as the Skripals have survived this incredibly powerful toxin, either it wasn't A-234 Novichoc or the British have an anti-dote ...... which means THEY have Novichoc. How embarrassing ..... now wait for the next excuse.

The telephone conversation Yulia had with her cousin(?) , has not been verified.

[Londonrake]

Londonrake: To answer your question .........

A question. I've followed all of your posts over the last few years where you have ardently supported President Putin and all of his actions. I can't recall a single occasion in all of that time where absolutely anything he's done has elicited a shred of criticism or even doubt on your part. You seem to have basically echoed absolutely everything that has come out of Moscow. Verbatim. Wrong?

YES .... wrong!

Well, I confess, I don't read all of your posts (especially if they're red! ) However, I do tend to catch most of the OPs and some of the quite interesting follow ups. So, it's not inconceivable that I missed one where you disagreed with the Kremlin line.

Can you help me out by giving an example?

Our minds work on two different principals. In your life primarily you carried out instructions and had no power to contest or object to those instructions. You have admitted before that you could not have a functional military where every Tom, Dick and Harry had his own opinion and could question those orders. That very obviously would not work irrespective of the doctrine being followed. The only way that can be achieved and to get everyone on the same page is to destroy any preconceived ideas or original thinking. I am not saying they are turned into zombies but they all must think using the same doctrine.

We see that today not only in the military but in religions ..... any religion and of course politics. I see no logical description for that process other than brain washing.

Well, firstly let me say that you have very little idea of "In your life" as far as I'm concerned. You've probably gleaned more from my occasional post on forums than you ever did in "the real world". I simply never talked about it.

But, yes, this is a view you've promoted quite a lot over the years. Given that you have at least a passing experience of the military I've always been surprised though. Not to mention that it is of course gratuitously and patronisingly offensive to anybody that's ever been in the military. Don't worry, it won't go on the file as an example of "personal abuse" . Should you ever unleash your secret weapon.

To cut a long story short, it seems that in your view, all military personnel have been brainwashed to the point where they can't think "outside the box". Robotic automatons who obey - like Daleks.

I imagine that quiet a few in here have done their time in the CNG and wonder how they feel about that incisive appraisal. Are you robotic automatons nowadays guys, that can't think for yourselves?

This is what happens, in the real world. Anybody who joins the military, of any shape or form, will go through a period of what's generically termed "basic training". That's a rigorous time where they're made to think of themselves as integral team members and to be mutually supporting. It comes in various degrees. The paras was 26 weeks of physically and mentally grueling Hell. Not to mention the odd bit of brutality thrown in (no Health and Safety in those days). The easiest bit was when you finished and got to do your jumps. By that time though you were a pretty close bunch of guys.

The RAF was 6 weeks of sauntering around a parade square, whilst making sure your shoes were shiny and shirts pressed. When it's over, you go on to do your professional training, before joining a unit. Rarely a hair out of place.

Your view of all this is absurd. Cartoonish and stereotypical. Moreover, the idea that you are in some way intellectually superior to anybody that's "done time" (as indeed you did. In the RAF and subsequently the army TA) is a self-indulgent illusion.

Can you truly not see, given an attitude like that, talking to people like that, why you have problems on these forums? Why things inevitably descend into acrimony? Given the record, obviously not.

In my life I was given a Project Specification, from that I would prepare a Scope of Work, do the design and get the drawings prepared. I would liaise with others to fit my bit into their bit so that the end result met the specification. If I thought that within the sphere of my own discipline a particular part of the specification was wrong I would say so. Minor points covered by a memo to a counterpart in another discipline or, on bigger issues, by convening a higher level meeting to discuss problems and solutions.

So in my world I look at the details and the 'what if’s'

I know what you did in your life. You were quite happy to talk about it.

So in my world I look at the details and the 'what if’s'. I doubt that in your life you would have had the authority or the leeway I had to make any significant changes. To make changes you need evidence to demonstrate why you believe you were right and the specification was incorrect. I look for details that says something does not look right and trace them back to the origin. I think I would be correct in saying you never had that authority?

I'm not going to get into a dick-measuring exchange with you. Suffice to say that actually you have no idea at all what I did in my career. Whilst I don't recall ever making derogatory comments about yours it hasn't stopped you from venting your spleen in my direction during the past though. "Button pusher". Ignorance personified.

A lack of time right now precludes my getting back onto the OP. Your "personal abuse" having distracted me. However, I've listened to your ridiculous views on the military in the past without passing comment. Maybe others might want to have an input on that one.


The real problem right now is - where are my dogs hiding the wire cutters that they are obviously using to get through the bloody fence twice a week.

[Schnauzer]

Not wishing to get too involved in the debate regarding the Russian involvement (or lack of) the poisoning affair, I am prompted by your reference to the 'Brainwashing ' of the military personnel to make some observations which might lessen the impact of such an assumption that 'Soldiers are Automatoms'.

My own career in the military, opened my eyes to realities both within and without the services to such an extent that I became far more conscious of the fact that (both militarily and politically) the entire process of serving the nation (or whatever) is specifically designed to ensure that those serving should NEVER be completely aware of the true purpose of their required dedication to duty.

Only with the passing of time does one come to understand that the objectives of military service are invariably subject to agendas beyond the reach of the common serviceman/woman who are generally convinced that they are doing the right thing by obeying the commands of their (as they see it ) superiors.

Might I suggest that such is not so 'Cut and Dried' in these troubled times ?, I have witnessed many changes in the attitudes of military personnel when they are called upon to embark upon active campaigns against new enemies, there often seems to be an amount of questioning going on and, looking back over the years, many are convinced that whatever the outcomes, the ordinary citizens will receive no benefits at all as they risk their lives.

Time was when the lower ranks were more fearful of their officers than they were of their perceived enemies, the 'First world War' is a good example of that and the pages of history are littered with similar circumstances in many other places where the military muscle is flexed.

My own view is that nowadays, fortunately, service personnel are more apt to consider the courses of action they are undertaking, it's no fun to march boldly into the unknown and offer your life as forfeit for some ill-conceived plan to control or destroy other societies, particularly (or even especially) when the cause of action is discovered to be either a misjudgment or even a political concoction.

No, I think the modern serviceman/woman is a little more robust in their ability to analyse that which is going on, maybe they value their lives a little more somewhat, hopefully the ability will expand and the true agendas given a little more consideration in the future......'Peace on Earth' perhaps.......doubt it BUT, one may only hope.

[Londonrake]

Schnauzer.

May I ask? How long were you in the military and in what capacity'

I'm glad that nowadays not every other word is in capitals.

[Schnauzer]

Schnauzer.

May I ask? How long were you in the military and in what capacity'

I'm glad that nowadays not every other word is in capitals.

REALLY ?, i'm SO glad.

It's very late and I'm dog tired................some other time.