Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Piratis we appear to be going around in circles and your constant chant for human rights and democracy is wearing thin as we have agreed that this is what we both desire (Level 10) within the context of the realities we have before us, we cannot go back in time and therefore have to negotiate a structure that will provide the best solution for all Cypriots. If we persist with condemning the other side you are right we might as well forget it.
This is not a situation where you can exibit bloody mindedness as the other side will only become more and more intrentched in their viewpoint and neither side will exibit the flexiblity to move forward, this is exactly what we see today, your line of thought appears to support this and will be the reason why we will never solve the Cyprus issue.

I will remind you again as you do not seem to tire of throwing your version of human rights and democracy in my face as it suits your aim which the more I read is to create a GC state with TC as just another minority. Well again I agree with you that as long as you maintain this mindset and do not acknowledge that we to desire the same ideals for all Cypriots and move on then why bother!!!

Yes, some mistakenly expected that Annan would base his proposal on the principles and resolutions of his own organization. I knew from the beginning that this was not the case since it was obvious to me than any non security council decision of the UN involving American interests was directly controlled by the Americans.

You were full aware of what was on the table in previous Annan plans which dont forget your leadership was ready to accept before Denktas walked out how can you now turn around and say that the plan did not incorporate UN resolutions , the plan was a compromise a road map to reaching level 10. The fact that you did not feel it was not in your favor is unfortunate because your leaders should have been negotiating in goodfaith and not producing the worse plan they could to guarantee people like you could manipulate the majority of GCs to vote no. It was clearly premedidated and the fact that TCs stood firm in New York caught your leaders on the wrong foot as they thought they could hide behind Denktas yet again and not have to reveal their true intentions, which is evident today than ever EU leverage over Turkey to extract GC demands.

So what if we rejected a proposal that we had 100% right to reject and which is now null and void? On the other hand Turkey showes complete disrespect to her obligations in respecting international low and the UN resolutions. If Turkey would follow the UN resolutions in the first place then no Annan plan would be needed.

I agree thats why we have a referendum and for the first time the people were asked we voted YES you voted NO end of story. What comes with that decision we all have to bear so trying to make feaible excuses doesnt really contribute to moving forward.

If Turkey were to follow UN resoluitons where would that leave the TC community? just where you want us I bet at the mercy of GCs human rights and democracy, with all due respect no thanks. Without definate rules and guidlines that only a compehensive solution can provide Turkey is here to stay.

For once more Turkey does the crimes and we are blamed for making the mistake of accepting Annan to fill in the blanks

Stop crying you made your bed so you have to lay in it which according to GCs warped viewpoint is better than ever in the international arena, so whats the problem?

Once more: If you share our aim that the solution should be one with no human rights violations and with democracy, then why should any of our leaders negotiate to get these things? Our leaders tried to get these things for 30 years, and then you blame us because you refused them?

Your leaders hid behind the Denktas stance and therefore milked the benefits of being the good guys for 30 years but all that changed and you are now having problems coping with it, from your posts I am still having difficulties accepting that your arguements are for the good of all Cypriots as they all lead to the same point a Greek Cypriot run state with TCs as just any othe minority. Why should I as a TC want that?? It will be a big step backwards for us and not desireable. No TC in the right mind would accept going backwards to live in a state run by GCs where we would be exposed to their interpretation of human rights and democracy. So you really have to think again no TCs will buy the fact that you chant human rights and democracy for all Cypriots if you do not exibit goodwill and measure to ensure that this would be the case in a united Cyprus.

The negotiations were done for 30 years with Turkey telling us "either you accept what we want or the illegal occupation continues". Yes, now we can say to Turkey "either you end your illegal occupation or we will use our 100% legal right to block you from EU". Any problem with that?

Unlike Turkey we are not doing anything illegal to force violations of human rights. We are doing something legal to try to force Turkey to accept human rights and democracy.
This is done by EU itself when it clearly tells to Turkey that in order to enter she needs to greatly improve her human rights record.

Piratis you are still having problems comprehending why you are unable to get rid of Turkey, the only way is to negotiate it or start a war and seeing you have been unable to do either for the last 30 years then that is as much your fault as it is theirs. The world cannot keep producing plans for GCs to reject and they will sooner or later realize if they havent done so already which is the feeling I get from the UN at the moment, that any plan that does not contain 100% GC demands will be rejected and this is just not possible. So that is why Tassos cannot restart UN negotiations and will make excuses until the cows come home as he very well knows that if this would be the last opportunity to unite Cyprus and many of the issues would not be as GCs want that they would again rejected it, this would mean the world would move towards recognizing the North.

As for GCs not doing anything illegal todayi Im sure you would also argue the same would go for the 1960s, which really sums up your mentality and reveals a great deal about you really view TCs and their role within Cypriot society.

As you know the Americans and the British tried to pass the Annan plan from the UN security council but this was rejected. Just this proves my point of whom within the UN was preparing the Annan plan, and we don't even need to see the fact that the Annan plan was one that met the desires of Turkey (a good US allie) at 90% and it didn't even respect our basic human rights.

Just proves how strong your Russian allies are, nothing more nothing less.

The occupation and the fact the illegality would be forced on us if we didn't accept a plan is not "gun on our head" kind of policy? Maybe when the Americans said that "a thousand brings will fall on your head if you do not accept the Annan plan" was also OK?

The Turkish army is a result of our mess and it is up to us to get rid of them, the only way to do this is to negotiate it, like we did in the Annan plan why is it so difficult to comprehend? Just shouting they are illegal and should leave does nto solve anything.
And when did GCs ever take any notice of what Americans said? for GCs Americans are the route to all evil, you are big and strong enough to oppose those guys why worry?

Papadopoulos was elected president easily for exactly this reason. Greek Cypriots would obviously not accept a plan that would violate their human and democratic rights. This is why the Annan plan was rejected, and this is why any plan will be rejected that will violate the human and democratic rights of people.

Its is your right to choose your leaders and take the route they lead you down but if you do not get the results you really desire then you have no one else but yourselves to blame. But Im pretty sure the GCs will blame all and sundry they have turned it into an art form.

This is why I said many times that any new plan should be negotiated in the framework of democracy and human rights. If your intention is another plan that would violate our human and democratic rights then it is not worth wasting our time negotiating.

I agree as long as those human rights and democracy are not administered by GCs.

Human rights and democracy and not "GC abiss" but universally accepted principles that you also have to finally accept some time.

But administered by GCs its a totally different ball game, you only have to look at the court case about the TCs that is unable to get electricity and the general standard of living of TCs in the south.

How about not repeating mistakes such as giving to foreigners intervention rights, giving to an 18% minority more than any other minority in the world has etc? What you say sounds nice, until one realizes that the "corrections" that you want are only the ones that suit you.

This is why instead of each side insisting on a tailored made solution by selectively using the past as an excuse, we should accept a system like any of the other EU democracies. (and US for the federation part)

How about not allowing the majority the right not to adhere to supreme court rulings? or acknowledge the veto? or respect human rights and democracy of all Cypriots? This can be argued both ways so we should ensure that the new system should be able to meet our situation, your are saying place the saddle of a full bred horse on a donkey Im sure we would all soon fall off. The saddle has to be tailored to fit the donkey so that we do not ever fall off again.

The EU laws talk about immigrants, not settlers that were brought by a state in violation of the Geneva convention. Of course it is sad that those people would have to pass from this due to the Turkish disrespect of any kind of international laws and agreements. This is why Turkey should improve in these things and stop violating the rights of her own citizens.

Please refrain from creating a negative climate asthis does not contribute to resolving anything the sooner you learn this the better it will be all.

How do you differentiate between the 2 these people came here out of their own free will just like the Turks did to Germany, and have now become citizens.

So you are saying that a man who has reisded in the north for 30 years should be thrown out. Well I dont agree, by all means lets find a way to rehouse thses people and return GC property but my view of human rights and democracy runs to not just whats written on paper but includes a conscience to do the right thing when I have the opportunity today and If you are unable to see this and act accordingly then all I can say is that this is a good example of GC administered human rights and democracy which we do not want any part of.

[Piratis]

Piratis we appear to be going around in circles and your constant chant for human rights and democracy is wearing thin as we have agreed that this is what we both desire (Level 10) within the context of the realities we have before us, we cannot go back in time and therefore have to negotiate a structure that will provide the best solution for all Cypriots.

The part were is bold is the part we disagree. It is the part that we hear for ages: "The reality is that you lost the war and Cyprus has been kept (illegally) partitioned for 31 years, so now you have to accept human rights violations against you on our gain".

Lets just agree that the solution will be full human rights and democracy for everybody without your usual excuses and then we would have agreed on this point.

This is not a situation where you can exibit bloody mindedness as the other side will only become more and more intrentched in their viewpoint and neither side will exibit the flexiblity to move forward, this is exactly what we see today, your line of thought appears to support this and will be the reason why we will never solve the Cyprus issue.

The bloody minded are the ones that insist on illegality and crimes. Not me. I insist on human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. I will continue to do it even if you don't like it.

I will remind you again as you do not seem to tire of throwing your version of human rights and democracy in my face as it suits your aim which the more I read is to create a GC state with TC as just another minority.

I do not have "my version". I didn't write this: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html , I didn't write the EU acquis and as far as democracy goes I accept the same version of any other EU country, or US which is a federation. On the other hand you demand something completely different for Cyprus, which does not exist in any other part of the world.

You were full aware of what was on the table in previous Annan plans which dont forget your leadership was ready to accept before Denktas walked out how can you now turn around and say that the plan did not incorporate UN resolutions , the plan was a compromise a road map to reaching level 10.

The leadership can not accept anything in this case since to be accepted the plan should be approved in a referendum.

Also how was Annan plan a road map reaching level 10? Annan plan was the final solution and our human and democratic rights were violated by it. How would we reach to level 10 with this? Make proposals for changes later on to take away what would then be your legal right to violate our human rights?
Annan plan was not a road map to "level 10". It was plan to legalize the partition and we have fortunately rejected it.

The fact that you did not feel it was not in your favor is unfortunate because your leaders should have been negotiating in goodfaith and not producing the worse plan they could to guarantee people like you could manipulate the majority of GCs to vote no. It was clearly premedidated and the fact that TCs stood firm in New York caught your leaders on the wrong foot as they thought they could hide behind Denktas yet again and not have to reveal their true intentions, which is evident today than ever EU leverage over Turkey to extract GC demands.

What you say is ridiculous. For 30 years you insisted on our human rights violations and now you tell me that it is our fault? Why didn't you simply stop trying to gain on the loss of our human rights and accept that the human rights of all Cypriots should be given and not part of any negotiation?

If Turkey were to follow UN resoluitons where would that leave the TC community? just where you want us I bet at the mercy of GCs human rights and democracy, with all due respect no thanks. Without definate rules and guidlines that only a compehensive solution can provide Turkey is here to stay.

This is what I said before: It is either we accept a "solution" tailored made on your demands that exists nowhere else, or you continue your illegal occupation based on some lame excuses. How can we negotiate on this basis?
Cyprus is an EU member now and it follows the exact same human rights and democracy principles of EU. Way better than Turkey or the "TRNC". So please stop giving these excuses.

Stop crying you made your bed so you have to lay in it which according to GCs warped viewpoint is better than ever in the international arena, so whats the problem?

What "bed" did I make? The problem is I repeat (since you keep asking): The non respect of our human and democratic rights.

Your leaders hid behind the Denktas stance and therefore milked the benefits of being the good guys for 30 years but all that changed and you are now having problems coping with it, from your posts I am still having difficulties accepting that your arguements are for the good of all Cypriots as they all lead to the same point a Greek Cypriot run state with TCs as just any othe minority. Why should I as a TC want that?? It will be a big step backwards for us and not desireable. No TC in the right mind would accept going backwards to live in a state run by GCs where we would be exposed to their interpretation of human rights and democracy. So you really have to think again no TCs will buy the fact that you chant human rights and democracy for all Cypriots if you do not exibit goodwill and measure to ensure that this would be the case in a united Cyprus.

A step backwards from what? Form the illegality they are forcing? Any illegal steps that were made that force a partition would have to be made "backwards" now, yes. What did you though? That we would accept a disguised partition?

Piratis you are still having problems comprehending why you are unable to get rid of Turkey, the only way is to negotiate it or start a war and seeing you have been unable to do either for the last 30 years then that is as much your fault as it is theirs.

That is a ridiculous statement. Turkey invaded and is illegally occupying part of our island. Did Kuwait had to sit and negotiate with Iraq for 30 years? Did the allies had to sit and negotiate with Hitler for 30 years?
The fault is with the one who is forcing illegality. This is Turkey. We have been negotiating with them for decades but they insist on illegality.

The world cannot keep producing plans for GCs to reject and they will sooner or later realize if they havent done so already which is the feeling I get from the UN at the moment, that any plan that does not contain 100% GC demands will be rejected and this is just not possible.

Which 100% demands? The demand for union with Greece? Because we came to the 50% of our demands when we compromised in 1960. Then we made further compromises and we accepted BBF.
On the other hand today you force your 150% of your demands, since not only you force partition, you keep the 37% of land while you are only the 18%.
You declare that either the plan is to your liking or you will continue the illegality.

So that is why Tassos cannot restart UN negotiations and will make excuses until the cows come home as he very well knows that if this would be the last opportunity to unite Cyprus and many of the issues would not be as GCs want that they would again rejected it, this would mean the world would move towards recognizing the North.

It was very clear from the first day you came to this forum that partition is what you wanted. So why don't just admit that either we accept a disguised partition that would violate our human and democratic rights or you will insist on illegality and try to get recognition for your illegal pseudo puppet state. (which you have never stopped doing actually)

As for GCs not doing anything illegal todayi Im sure you would also argue the same would go for the 1960s, which really sums up your mentality and reveals a great deal about you really view TCs and their role within Cypriot society.

No, in the 1960s both communities have committed crimes. Today and for the last 30 years (a much longer period that the 60s) Turkey is the only one who insists on illegality and crimes.

Just proves how strong your Russian allies are, nothing more nothing less.

Don't forget the Chinese also.

The Turkish army is a result of our mess and it is up to us to get rid of them, the only way to do this is to negotiate it, like we did in the Annan plan why is it so difficult to comprehend?

I tell you want. If it is ok that you ethnically cleansed us, and now we have to "negotiate it" We will ethnically cleanse you and then we will negotiate it. OK?

I agree as long as those human rights and democracy are not administered by GCs.

But administered by GCs its a totally different ball game, you only have to look at the court case about the TCs that is unable to get electricity and the general standard of living of TCs in the south.

Man, you are full of lame excuses. Look at Turkey and your pseudo state that people are in jail or murdered by the sate because of what they believe. Then come and talk to me about GCs.

How about not allowing the majority the right not to adhere to supreme court rulings? or acknowledge the veto? or respect human rights and democracy of all Cypriots?

I agree. No problem with that.

This can be argued both ways so we should ensure that the new system should be able to meet our situation, your are saying place the saddle of a full bred horse on a donkey Im sure we would all soon fall off. The saddle has to be tailored to fit the donkey so that we do not ever fall off again.

The problem is that you want a solution tailored made only on you. Because of this there was no solution for 30 years. So lets stop the lame excuses that our donkey is so unique that needs a saddle tailored made to the TCs desires, and lets accept to choose the saddle that all other donkeys are wearing without a problem.

How do you differentiate between the 2 these people came here out of their own free will just like the Turks did to Germany, and have now become citizens.

I will tell you what. Our refugees should return to the very last one. I believe we agree on this, right?

Then the settlers can take their case to the ECHR as well. Then the ECHR will decide who have the right to stay and who dodn't have it. The ECHR decision will then be respected. ok?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis this arguement is getting out of hand so therefore I will try to condense it, your constant chant for human rights and democracy is hollow, no TCs will ever accept living in a purely GC run state.

Your having to address the refugees, settlers issue, army issue etc is dealing with the realities before us, should we just bury our heads in the sand and hope it will all go away or solve itself? is that the GC way of applying human rights and democracy?

Just brushing aside our concerns as lame excuses doesnt cut water as they have to be addressed and solved in order to find a solution the same goes for your concerns which I never just kicked to one side, so please try I know it may be difficult to show the same respect.

You may say verbally that you will administer the universally accepted human rights and democracy to all Cypriots but I and many more TCs do not believe this for one moment you have not shown this over the past 2 years and will have the opportunity to prove this over the coming years as TCs apply to your courts for the brand of HR and democracy you boast about administering. We have yet to see any of it even in 2006.
IMHO you use this chant as a smoke screen to avoid addressing the real issues we have before us to ensure you can form a GC state. Im not buying it Piratis, it will take positive actions and measures on the part of your leaders to illustrate that you are trustworthy and have the goodwill of all Cypriots at heart.

The Annan plan was a compromise, you didnt like it so you rejected it thats your bed so lay in it. The fallout be it negative or positive is all yours so you have to deal with it.

You still have difficulty understanding that the position we find ourselves in today is the result of the mistakes we made in the past, if you wish to remedy them and build a united Cyprus then you have to move forward with us as your partners not just any other minority, do you see us as your partners??
I could be a hardliner and not acknowledge your losses and stick to the arguement that you lost the war tough luck this is it everyone has their human right and democracy within their chosen countries and not even try to negotiate anything, is that a better viewpoint? I would like to bring to your attention although Im 100% certain it will make no difference that your approach is one that fuels this type of viewpoint, chanting human rights and democracy for all is easy, proving it is a totally different matter.

The human rights and democracy you feel you administer so well in the south has no TC element in it, to be really honest here from all our posts I would today prefer to live under the TRNC laws which provide our democracy and human rights, just ask yourself for one moment why?? and please dont try to put forward the arguement of we gain on your losses bullshit. We still do not trust the GCs and their intentions to form a united Cyprus that is why we demand the mechanisms that will ensure they will not dominate and turn Cyprus into a GC administered state. Please try to be objective and unbiased in your response.

The step backwards is the leap into the GC style abiss of human rights and democracy I refer to and to which we will never return. the sooner you realize that the better for all. Your evaluation and cold hearted solution to the settlers issue being a prime example of the inhuman rights and democracy GC style to expell someone who has lived for 30 years in Cyprus.

If we were able to enforce anything then we would have enforced the Annan plan so your constant crying that we hold the gun to your head to accept all our demands is utter rubbish.

I do not make any excuses that I want a tailor made solution that will address all our issues, I do not want to leave anything to chance or gaps that could later be manipulated by either side to ensure a united Cyprus will not work or one communities dominance over the other. I do not want your administered type of solution that will ensure that we will be reduced to any other minority, forget it I would rather stay the way we are.

Your minset is exactly why I am on this forum to test and reconfirm that I have to accept defeat that we will never find a solution that will address all our concerns and that we have to come to terms with the fact that recognized partition (which I have never hidden) is they only way to end the Cyprus issue.

[Piratis]

Piratis this arguement is getting out of hand so therefore I will try to condense it, your constant chant for human rights and democracy is hollow, no TCs will ever accept living in a purely GC run state.

Here we go again. When did I ask for a purely GC run state?????

Cyprus is made by 82% GCs and 18% TCs. Purely GC state would be 100% GCs. This is not what I asked. I said many times that TCs can have proportionate representation at all levels.

Anyways, I will not waste more time with you. You will keep finding excuses as to why human rights and democracy can not be applied in Cyprus just like in any other EU country and keep demanding a tailored made solution to your liking. It is clear what you demand. Either we accept your demands for disguised partition or you will keep trying for "standard" partition.

Your minset is exactly why I am on this forum to test and reconfirm that I have to accept defeat that we will never find a solution that will address all our concerns and that we have to come to terms with the fact that recognized partition (which I have never hidden) is they only way to end the Cyprus issue.

Recognized partition is your only aim and has always been. If you wanted to check if we would be fools enough to accept a disguised partition I hope now that you know that this will not happen.

[Viewpoint]

Anyway I dont want to waste anymore time with you either.

Sorry to burst your bubble but partition happened back in 1974, just the recongnized part left now.

As long as you continue with your mindset and application of GC style of human rights and democracy then in time more and more Cypriots will realize that we have no other option but recognition.

[bg_turk]

Viewpoint,


is it so hard to realize that for Piraits level 10, where all human rights are respected, is not the final level. There is also level 11 - a single unifed unitary state. Human rights for Piratis are not an objective, they are simply a tool for his real objective at level 11.

But he will not succeed in achieving his objective, because he fails to appreciate that a resolution to the human rights problem will not necessarily mean a resolution to the political problem. Human rights can equally well be respected in a two-state outcome as a single-state outcome.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint,


is it so hard to realize that for Piraits level 10, where all human rights are respected, is not the final level. There is also level 11 - a single unifed unitary state. Human rights for Piratis are not an objective, they are simply a tool for his real objective at level 11.

But he will not succeed in achieving his objective, because he fails to appreciate that a resolution to the human rights problem will not necessarily mean a resolution to the political problem. Human rights can equally well be respected in a two-state outcome as a single-state outcome.

After the referendum I came to the stark conclusion that we will never be able to find a solution that will be acceptable to both sides and my reason for attempting to discuss issues with Piratis was to test this conclusion. I am well aware of where Piratis arguements are leading bg_turk a GC state with TCs as any other minority assimilated over time into that GC state, this will never happen as we also have the right to say NO to any plan that would lead us in that direction. Piratis and GCs like him are the ones which influence the sheep that exist in all socities, therefore as long as this tool/chant for "human rights and democracy" GC style continues and their is no flexiblity with regards to finding a plan suitable for our particular problem, that will in essence address all our major concerns then we have no alternative but to wait as we are doing today and play political ping pong game or come to the stark conclusion that negotiations with GCs will not resolve anything and that we should pursue negotiating a formula that will create 2 states acceptable to both sides or if that doesnt work to return to the Denktas mentality of not negotiating anything and taking measures for outright recognition.

[Piratis]

As long as you continue with your mindset and application of GC style of human rights and democracy then in time more and more Cypriots will realize that we have no other option but recognition.

Keep dreaming and dreaming and dreaming .. like you did for the last 30 years. Partition is illegal, and the results of ethnically cleansing the majority from 1/3rd of Cyprus in order to create an artificial Turkish state will never be legalized.

is it so hard to realize that for Piraits level 10, where all human rights are respected, is not the final level. There is also level 11 - a single unifed unitary state. Human rights for Piratis are not an objective, they are simply a tool for his real objective at level 11.

When you can't argue against what I say what do you do? You argue against your imagination.
Why do we have this dialog then, if what I say is not what matters? How could any negotiations have any result in this way?

After the referendum I came to the stark conclusion that we will never be able to find a solution that will be acceptable to both sides

I came to the same conclusion long time ago. The reason is simple: While what is acceptable for the GCs is merely something that would allow them to have what every other European citizen has - human rights, democracy, no discrimination etc, the TCs have been brainwashed to accept only a "solution" that would grand them things that have no right for and that exist nowhere else in the world: 50% power for an 18% minority, 29%+ of land for the 18% of people etc.

These outrageous demands have been planed in the brains of TCs by people like Dectash, Talad and all the other puppets of Turkey in Cyprus, with only one aim: To make solution impossible so Turkey could maintain the status gvo and her control of north Cyprus, which as Ozkok (the Turkish General) said is the most strategic place for the interests of Turkey, and that the interests of the 60 million Turks come above the interests of the 150.000 Turkish Cypriots.

I am sorry that you can not see that a country were democracy and human rights exists for all, without any kind of discrimination based on race, language, sex etc is for the best of all Cypriots.
Turkish Cypriots, as the 18%, can have a guaranteed proportional representation in every level, veto powers in all important matters and direct control of anything related to their different culture, religion and language without the involvement of any GC. These are more things than any other minority in the world has, still we do not have any objections since they would not violate our basic human rights.

Then of course what I say doesn't matter for you, since what it matters is only what you imagine I say, so you can continue your illegalities and crimes. Based on this assumption of yours any dialog and negotiation is rendered useless. It is obvious that what we say will not matter. All you want is a disguised partition, and if you don't get it you will continue with your illegal occupation.

I just hope that one day TCs will realize there can be no excuse for the violations of the human and democratic rights of people, and that indeed a united federal Cyprus, with no refugees, no human rights violations, equality of all citizens and all the other things that exist in every modern democratic country is the best for Cyprus as well.

Viewpoint you ask for a tailored made "solution" on your "needs" of having 50% power and 29%+ of land while you are the 18%, and with disregard to our human rights of returning to our own homes and living in a democratic country without any discriminations. I hope you can understand that this can never happen.

If you want a solution, stop trying to force on us the outrageous things that exist nowhere else in the world and you have no right for, and simply ask for your rights like we do. Then a solution will be very easy.

[bg_turk]

is it so hard to realize that for Piraits level 10, where all human rights are respected, is not the final level. There is also level 11 - a single unifed unitary state. Human rights for Piratis are not an objective, they are simply a tool for his real objective at level 11.

When you can't argue against what I say what do you do? You argue against your imagination.
Why do we have this dialog then, if what I say is not what matters? How could any negotiations have any result in this way?

Is any of what I say imagined or untrue? Isn't what you want a unitary state?
I know your arguments very well by the way. I have been arguing with you for more than half a year now!

[bg_turk]

I am sorry that you can not see that a country were democracy and human rights exists for all, without any kind of discrimination based on race, language, sex etc is for the best of all Cypriots.
Turkish Cypriots, as the 18%, can have a guaranteed proportional representation in every level, veto powers in all important matters and direct control of anything related to their different culture, religion and language without the involvement of any GC. These are more things than any other minority in the world has, still we do not have any objections since they would not violate our basic human rights.

Let us imagine that we can reach a compromise where all human rights are respected including those of the turkish immigrants in the TRNC. Who will atually guarantee that those rights will be respected in practice? You, papadopoulos, who? Do you think we are navie enough to think that once you have the upper hand you will be singing the same song that you are singing now. I would never personally trust people like you because you consistently fail to be objective and I cannot see you ever going against your governments line of thought.