Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

[quote="Londonrake"

You have this ingrained view of Leave voters. Like they are an army of identical clones. It's unassailable of course and provides a comforting justification for some of your views I suspect. I've spent 11 years of my life so far living and (mostly) working in European countries. They are not "the enemy" and I wish and hope that when the dust settles we can carry on cooperating in many fields, not just trade.

[/quote]

No, I don't. However, I believe there are very strong correlations between certain mindsets and voting patterns in the 23 June referendum.

[Londonrake]

You have this ingrained view of Leave voters. Like they are an army of identical clones. It's unassailable of course and provides a comforting justification for some of your views I suspect. I've spent 11 years of my life so far living and (mostly) working in European countries. They are not "the enemy" and I wish and hope that when the dust settles we can carry on cooperating in many fields, not just trade.

No, I don't. However, I believe there are very strong correlations between certain mindsets and voting patterns in the 23 June referendum.

In my experience I haven't appeared to be some sort of anomaly. I did find in my travels that most of the people who voted to stay that I spoke to did so either for maintenance of the status quo or out of worry from the onslaught of fear campaigning they were subjected to. TBH the level of familiarity with the EU and it's workings was pretty sketchy. It wasn't enough to make sweeping generalisations about all Remainers of course but at least I gained a feel for things.

I'm possibly repeating myself here but after 7 months I think the subject's undoubtedly getting a "Groundhog Day" feel about it.

[Londonrake]

Here we go, round and round the same mulberry bush again. For example, Labour won the 1997 general election with 418 seats and 43.2% of the votes. That was a majority. The tories had previously been in government for 17 years, but now they were in the minority, so by your logic they had to shut down and not act as an opposition party, otherwise they would be 'bad losers' and 'moaners'.

You're not a Tory acting in opposition after loosing. You're trying to get the General Election result annulled, because people were lied to/didn't understand the issues/were only a small majority, etc, etc.

No one's suggesting you roll over and die. Once we're out of the EU you have every right to vote for a pro-European party. Moreover, you could run as a Candidate or even form one yourself.

The analogy is false and difference glaring but.........there are none so blind.

[Robin Hood]

Is this what a collective trade deal means?

I wanted to buy a simple piece of medical equipment ... it’s basically a piece of plastic.

So I look on the internet:

• Only one source in Cyprus at €99 + Akis express delivery charge.

• Sources in Germany and France around €120-130 + shipping.

• Sources in the UK £120 + shipping.

• Source it in the US and it is just $55 with free standard air mail delivery. At current rates that is about €50.

All these were tax , VAT free.

In this case all the US suppliers said they were not allowed to deliver this item to anywhere other than the US and US territories!!!!

But having been through this before, when you ship in from the US, Cyprus (EU) customs add import duty and then 19% VAT (even if the goods are VAT exempt) and that includes on the delivery charges as well. Isn’t this just protectionism?

The simple piece of plastic is from the same manufacturer in the US in each case but either the Europeans are greedy or their trade agreement is there to stop us from getting it cheaper from the US. The EU as a block seems to be doing exactly what Trump proposes to do with cheaper imports.

[Tim Drayton]

I'm possibly repeating myself here but after 7 months I think the subject's undoubtedly getting a "Groundhog Day" feel about it.

That is an odd statement coming from the person who started the thread.

All I have done in this thread is express my own sincerely held opinion that leaving the EU will be disastrous for the UK and I find myself being branded 'undemocratic' for exercising my most basic of rights in a pluralist democracy.

[Tim Drayton]

The analogy is false and difference glaring but.........there are none so blind.

OK, let's approach things using a different and very close analogy, albeit hypothetical. Let us suppose that the June 23 referendum had gone narrowly in favour of remain. Would you then have expected UKIP to immediately close down and cease ever campaigining again for the UK to leave the EU? Should they be branded 'bad losers' or 'moaners' if they did so? If they hoped to have another referendum in the future, would this amount to the desire to have a 're-run' or 'annul the result'? This is another question I remember having asked you on several occasions but you studiuosly refrain from replying. In the kind of pluralist democracy that we have in the UK which until recently I perhaps naively imagined the vast majority of the population in our country cherished the only answer is, no, they would be perfectly free to continue to campaign for what they believe in. We in the UK, rightly in my view, pride ourselves in having bucked the fascist trend in the 1930's and having maintained pluralism and democracy in public life, certainly to the extend that nobody has been persecuted simply for expressing their opinion. In a world in which fascism is on the rise once again I really wonder if we will be so lucky this time round. When I see the kind of verbal abuse now being heaped on those who simply express a view that runs counter to what some consider to be the orthodoxy based on the votes of 37% of the electorate, I can't help wondering how long it will be until we are hauled off in dawn raids, imprisoned and perhaps tortured or executed. I am afraid of what the future is going to bring.

[Londonrake]

I do have comments on your last posts Tim (NO??!)

I seem to be hogging the discussion a bit though at present. Poor ole RH is getting sidelined. Anything to say on his last couple?

[Tim Drayton]

No comments. Good. Let's leave it there then. Let me remind you that I entered this thread with the simple comment: 'RIP UK' and was then goaded into explaining my sentiments, and when I did so was treated to ad-hominem comments about me supposedly being a 'bad loser'. Please either ask for my opinion and then engage in a civilised debate over it, or don't ask for it.

As to Robin Hood's posts, I am a very busy man and have decided that wading through that interminable drivel is pointless and so ignore them. Perhaps you should do the same with my posts if you do not want to engage in proper debate, and then we can all be happy.

[Tim Drayton]

Seriously though, if you believe that this topic has a Groundhog Day feel to it - and given the way that we inevitably run into the Brexit fundamentalists' wall of denial, you are right - could you explain your motive for starting this thread when knew full well where it was going to lead?

[Londonrake]

No comments. Good. Let's leave it there then. Let me remind you that I entered this thread with the simple comment: 'RIP UK' and was then goaded into explaining my sentiments, and when I did so was treated to ad-hominem comments about me supposedly being a 'bad loser'. Please either ask for my opinion and then engage in a civilised debate over it, or don't ask for it.

As to Robin Hood's posts, I am a very busy man and have decided that wading through that interminable drivel is pointless and so ignore them. Perhaps you should do the same with my posts if you do not want to engage in proper debate, and then we can all be happy.

As I indicated, I do have comments. Leaving it there is always of course your prerogative, although it strikes me that you're one who generally likes to have the last word . I'll post my views later, anyway. Clearly it's a subject which is of great interest to me and really the only one I have gotten engaged in on this Forum to any depth.

As far as RH is concerned I was just being polite.

I'm not sure what your definition of "bad loser" is but I submit that events since the referendum on the part of those who wished to remain have amounted to nothing more than an avalanche of clear, supportive evidence to substantiate that view. Contrary-wise calling somebody a "Prize idiot" is much more in keeping with what's commonly regarded as a personal attack. Furthermore, your all-encompassing, derogatory comments regarding Leave voters, "Satire" isn't normally what most would regard as "civilised" discourse. Not really quid pro quo. FWIW - you do come across upon occasion as somewhat condescending towards those who don't share you POV.

I don't need to ask for your opinion, as you have been quite free in giving one on this topic for 7 months, as of course have I, on the odd occasion.

I am sure you are a busy man, although you appear to spend a good deal of time in here nevertheless. I'm done with the treadmill so of course can please myself. If I have anything that needs translating though, you're my man.