Cyprus-Forum.com

[tcklim]

Ok first of all, let me rebuke those that accuse me of having any interest, financial or otherwise, in the North. That I do not. Let me also rebuke those that claim that I seem to think that a solution should be based on Turkey's continued occupation and violation of your human rights. I have never said you should stick to the Annan plan and let go of all the properties and lives abandoned in the North. All I have said is that the way to go about resolving the problem demands an understanding of both sides positions. Whilst I Understand the GC perspective, when reading the forum and other GC posts, they are overhwelmingly hostile towards the TC posters and have no desire to comprehend their perspective. THAT is what I was trying to put into context here.

There are differences between the communities and there will always be security concerns, but they need to be minimized in order for a solution to work. When I say this, I never said this means GC's should never get their properties back. I never said that a recognized partiton was the solution. This is what you instantly assumed, I never mentioned it....

There will never be a guarrantee for no racism, discrimination etc. of course, the nature of man prohibits this, but there can be some level of reassurance. I'm sorry, but my TC friend in the South is not a single isolated incident. The right to medical care and state services does not in itself make their lives on par with the GC communities. A single look at the state of the largest TC community in Limassol near the old port illustrates the differences.

A UNIFIED country with no borders can only be built if both sides trust and respect each other. I understand it is difficult for you to trust or show respect to the TC's because of the violations of Turkey. But this, in itself, is an obstacle. You keep going on about how you cannot respect them because they are violating your human rights and occupying and etc. But as this is the root of the Cyprus problem, how can you ever solve it without dialogue and understanding of the other sides positions. Of course, the TC's also need to understand the GC perspective, the only reason I haven't been mentioning it is because it has been loudly loudly voiced already all across this forum and the TC's seem to have gotten the message, but the GC's on this forum don't seem to get theirs,, that's all.

I personally have no bias against either community. I have many GC friends (natural since I live there) and only a couple of TC friends. I used to express the same views as many of the GC's here, as I went to a GC school and grew up around these views. I have since lived in 5 different countries and become much more open-minded and tried to look at it another way, managed, and saw why we can't reach a solution.

I am giving my opinion of it, as you have given yours, but when it comes right down to it, you cannot solve a problem without dialogue, and you cannot have dialogue when you hate the other party and do not view them as fellow Cypriots.

Agree with me or not, flame me or not, it is clear many people here have a lot of bitterness and anger instilled within them. You say that's justified.... fine, to some extent, I can agree with you. But it still remains an obstacle, from both sides.

[cypezokyli]

i ll try to give some help to tcklim
kithrea wrote:

GCs like myself insist on our human rights not out of stubborness, bloody-mindedness, or pigheadedness, but because (as others have tried to point out) it is no less than what we are entitled to under international law (and what every human being is entitled to). What you don’t seem to appreciate is if we allow Turkey’s illegal actions to stand, it sets a very dangerous precedent and erodes principles which we all have a responsibility to defend. It puts all of us at risk – Greek, Turk, Iraqi – EVERYONE.

human rights are ofcource important.
a look around the world, almost every single part of the world, you will realise that human rights problem exist everywhere.
how do you think we are going to solve the problem is what i miss.
you want to call the turkish intervantion illegal. fine. i also agree. you can even get the whole world agree to that. result?
there are always two things that we tend to forget when we talk about the intervantion :
1. what has caused it
2. how are we going to end it without discussions? if you know a way tell me and i will support it as well

I have heard TCs raise the issue of security many times. It is not that GCs do not understand these concerns. However, as I have said elsewhere, it is not sufficient to claim that you are afraid of GCs and that for this reason you are entitled to keep our property. I think you have to demonstrate that your fear of harm is well-founded, and you also have to be realistic about the measures that can reasonably be taken to mitigate that fear (this was what Piratis’ example about traffic accidents was about – it was a very good analogy and I’m sorry you didn’t appreciate it).

If you ask for the impossible (ie an absolute guarantee that no TC will ever experience racism, discrimination or rudeness in a re-united Cyprus –something that cannot be guaranteed anywhere in the world, including a separate TC state), it’s not fair to accuse GCs of being ‘inflexible’ when we can’t accommodate your demands.

did you ever wonder why they feel insecure?
they are not asking the impossible - or did the AP guaranteed that there would have been no discrimination?
ofcource it is suffiecient to say that bc i am afraid i keep your land. it doesnt mean that i agree. but believe me, freedom of fear is one of the fundamental principles of the UN. i dont justified as well today, but as a general remark it is justifiable.
besides the cyprus problem, as agreed by our politicians is going to be solved on BBF basis. as a concequence not all refugees will return.
as concequence, staying concetrated on the land problem does not lead to any solution.

It is not sufficient, to justify your claims of fear of harm from GCs, to point to an isolated example (your TC friend in the south) and claim that this proves that GCs are racist and that the two communities cannot live together. As others have already pointed out, the weight of evidence supports the opposite conclusion. As I’m sure you know, TCs in the free area of Cyprus are entitled to health care, employment, insurance, and pensions amongst other benefits – is this your idea of “not making a single effort to try resolve the problem locally through trust and friendship building actions” ? what rights do GCs have in the occupied area ? None. (by the way, finding employment in Cyprus is hard for most people – no matter what your race, as is dealing with the bureaucracy). The opening up of the Green line has not led to any inter-communal violence either (even though GC refugees have good reason to be extremely angry about the state of their properties, churches etc in the occupied area). We also know that GCs and TCs live and work side by side in places like London in relative harmony (in fact there are many friendships between GCs and TCs).

dont pretend to be generous kithrea. what we give to the tcs, is not out of love for them. it is our obligation to offer that.

If there is any ill-feeling towards TCs at all, it is not out of racism or because of events in the past, but because of your almost universal failure to condemn Turkey for its ongoing violations of the human rights of your compatriots. If we are all just Cypriots, where are the TC voices calling for respect for the human rights of GCs, in the way for example that many Jews have voiced their opposition to Israel’s violations of the human rights of Palestinian refugees. You would have a lot more credibility amongst GCs if you took a stand against the occupation of our country (yours and mine) by a foreign power that has no respect for any of us. It takes guts to stand up for what is right, as opposed to what is simply in your self-interest.

the most radical cypriots at the time being, are in the north i am afraid to say. really. KTÖS is a beautiful example, and i can bring more if you want. the problem is that we do not reach out hand towards them. i challange you to read the letters coming in phileleftheros everyday (phileleftheros and not simerini) and then you tell me who is the more nationalist of the two.