Cyprus-Forum.com

[tcklim]

And what should this framework be according to you?
For me this framework is democracy, respect of human rights of everybody, equality of all people regardless of their race, religion, language etc, laws that are enforced, the EU acquis, and our EU membership.
Can you please propose a better framework?

You are describing principles and the result that should be achieved...... not how to do it. If you don't respect the other side, you cannot expect them to respect you.... regardless of the past, the issue for them is trust that THEIR rights will also be respected in the event of a solution, not just yours...

Turkey has strategic interests in Cyprus. They were demanding the whole or part of Cyprus since the day they lost it to the British.

Security can be achieved in ways that will not violate the human and democratic rights of others. In fact an environment were the human rights of large part of the population are violated would definitely not create a stable and a secure environment for anybody.

It did... and to some degree still does, but they also have interests in achieving a solution. Of course i never suggested an environment where GCs feel they have lost human rights is viable, but neither is one where TCs have lost theirs. That is why NEGOTIATION is necessary to achieve a balance...

The occupation and the violations of our human rights are happening right now, not in the past. What was in the past are the selectively chosen events that the Turks use in order to violate our human rights today.

You also choose your events to lambast the TC's and build mistrust. It goes both ways. In-fact, might I say by endlessly reading this forum that it is you specifically that is constantly bringing up the past and hurling insults at the TC's then casually telling everyone you have no bad intentions... to stop the situation today, the environment you create prevents it...

Why don't you tell us of this method? As I said above, a democratic state were the human rights of everybody are respected without racist discriminations is the best method in my opinion.

I've already told you..... what you are saying is not a method, it is a RESULT, to get to this result you need a process and this process must involve the building of trust and friendship. What you do does not help. You haven't responded to what I'm telling you about TC fears of reunification and the life of TCs in the South now.... WHY would they want to live as inferiors.... i UNDERSTAND the GC perspective, but i also understand the TC perspective, and you have to satisfy BOTH concerns to reach a solution not just yours..

Also why do you refer only about TCs? Don't we also have to make sure that GCs are not prosecuted either? If the TCs were prosecuted in 1% of our common history, GCs were prosecuted in the 99%. So why you are so concerned with TCs and not with GCs? Is it maybe because unlike the TCs who have the "weak" Turkey behind them, we GCs are so powerful that would be easier for us to prosecute others?

The GC side in the event of a solution is stronger, which is why the TCs need security. It's not that difficult to comprehend. Your common history comment is irrelevant. Cyprus has been conquered endlessly by different civilizations, the extreme past TODAY is irrelevant in finding a solution. It's no use calling your TC compatriots barbarians... Greeks have quite a violent history as well. Europe and the world all have violent backgrounds. Move on.....

No. You said that what TCs demand, demand it for security. The question was why then do they demand to keep what they stole from us? You didn't answer this question.

They demand a separate zone where TC's can gain security for themselves against GC intimidation. I repeat that I do not condone occupation or invasion, but I believe personally, that in order to persuade them that they do not need a separate zone to achieve security, you have to show them you are friends and countrymen, again through trust-building measures..... which, so far, have been non-existant and if anything the GC side constantly displays hostility and accusations .... whenever a TC gesture is made, it is lambasted instead of returned....

and as was mentioned in another post, TC's owned more than 18% of the land itself
As it was mentioned by whom?. Here is the table presented by Kifeas in another thread:


But I guess you take for granted what the TCs say only, right? You said you were not a TC. What are you? You obviously take their side even when they are obviously wrong. Why is it?.

I prefer not to take sides, the only reason I'm bringing up these views is because this forum and you in particular, are always portraying extreme views from the GC persepctive and gains only... I'm just trying to persuade you and other like-minded GC's to stop being so stubborn and think about what you're doing in the big picture and whether you're helping or not. It's just that the way you are thinking and presenting the GC side portrays the situation as hopeless... and if I were a TC reading this forum, I would definetely not want to reunite after reading some of you and other GC posts... it's only natural, place yourself in their shoes...

You are wrong. We have NEVER claimed the TC land as our own. The TCs went into enclaves in 63-64 because of the conflict and they have returned in 1968. What we are asking is simply that we are allowed to return to our homes as well. Why do you have to give lame excuses against this very basic human right of peopel?
.

I fully understand the desire of the displaced GC's to return to their homes, I'm not providing excuses, I'm trying to portray a realistic outlook on the situation. If you want to achieve this result, you will have to do this as well.... thus far, you have not....

And who objected to "a solution where 2 communities can coexist peacefully, inharmony, without racist and discriminatory barriers"? In fact this is what I ask for all the time.

You have.... through the hostility in your posts. You claim you want this but you offer no mechanism to achieve it. By telling Turkey to f off and get out of here without offering any security for TC's to reassure them you can coexist peacefully, they won't do it, cos they won't believe you.... there is racism and discrimination at TC's living in the SOuth since the invasion right now.... no discrimination against GC's doesnt mean no discrimination against TC's in a unified country...

I never said they should. And I never asked for ANY of their human rights to be violated. How will any of their human rights be violated if what we will have is a democratic country with respect of human rights and a constitution like the one of any other EU country (the choice is yours)?

Again a colourful storybook picture of it.... just by saying on paper you have a country with respect for human rights and a constitution doesn't make it one...... aka TC's in the SOuth right now are discriminated against. To make it reality, you have to instill it in the mentality, and your mentality shows that TCs will not enjoy this colourful rosy picture...

You are wrong again. We don't even need to go to TCs, lets take you as an example. You loudly excuse the occupation of our country and the violations of our human rights. As you said you are from Limassol. Why should a Greek Cypriot like you, give you job etc, when you don't even show respect to our basic human rights?

I beg to differ..... I don't excuse the death of innocents or occupation and I believe the situation should have been resolved a long time ago. But i am a realist, and analyzing the situation today and what needs to be done for the future, I accept GC mistakes and i Understand TC concerns. You do not understand. You focus only on GC concerns. You cannot do that to achieve a solution. Of course you have to give a TC equal rights what are you on about..... it is absolutely none of your business what an individual TC's political or ethical views are, they are deserving of equal treatment in their own country and respect of their human rights as well. My TC friend living in the south does not himself go around waving turkish flags and supporting the occupation. He wants a solution. But he is now forced to leave Cyprus because he just can't find good work and is constantly discriminated against by GC's. How can this possibly contribute to goodwill and trust in order to build a united country that respects both sides human rights????

We do not. What we have is a Turkish occupation, British military bases etc. To have control means that all Cypriots in a democratic way decide a plan for Cyprus and then have the power to enforce it without even asking Turkey, UK etc. This is obviously not the case now and it has never been.

You have control over the only legitimate and recognized government in Cyprus and control over all the wealth that that provides. To gain the control you speak of, you have to factor in TC's in your definition of Cypriot... if you factor in GCs only then you already have total control. The bases are a very limited area and they are here by agreement, they do not influence government decisions on the Cyprus problem. You do not ask Turkey or Britain squat with regard to TC negotiations. That's because you don't even try to have any negotiations.

That would be the case if you could disallow my idiotic ways. Was this chance given to us? No. We were forced to follow whatever idiotic the big powers wanted. If we didn't want to follow it, they simply forced it on us.

Noone is forcing anything on you now.... The original constitution was not to your liking, negotiate a new one with the TC's ... side by side, without the foreign influence you are constantly currently asking for!

The UN by proposing the Annan partition plan, that goes against their own principles, showed for once more that they have no power or will to go against the American interests. The Annan plan was tailored to the needs of Turkey, totally disregarding even our basic human rights.

Tassos knows that the only way the occupation will end is if Turkey will be forced to do it. He is working on that direction. Of course we are the weak side, and we don't have any illusions. However trying in the correct direction rather than just wasting our time is the wise thing to do.

You're wasting your time trying to FORCE a solution... you cannot FORCE a solution, it will only be achieved through reconciliation. You've had a forced solution before and that obiously didn't work. The GC government played part in the drafting of the Annan plan..., if it was not satisfied, it should not have been put forward in the first place...

[Piratis]

You are describing principles and the result that should be achieved...... not how to do it. If you don't respect the other side, you cannot expect them to respect you.... regardless of the past, the issue for them is trust that THEIR rights will also be respected in the event of a solution, not just yours...

And how is respect expressed according to you? Isn't the first step of respect, the respect that everybody is obligated to show even to complete strangers: respect to human rights?
I repeated many times my 100% respect to the human rights of Turkish Cypriots and I never asked them to compromise them. Unfortunately I do not receive the same in return. What we receive instead is that we have to face the reality that we lost the war and we therefore have to compromise part of our human rights if we want the other part to be allowed to us. Sorry, but this is a totally disrespectful attitude.

It did... and to some degree still does, but they also have interests in achieving a solution. Of course i never suggested an environment where GCs feel they have lost human rights is viable, but neither is one where TCs have lost theirs. That is why NEGOTIATION is necessary to achieve a balance...

So you suggest that stability and security can be achieved via ethnic cleansing? I can understand your logic behind this. At the same time you have to accept that this is a hostile attitude against us, and that a similar logic would be the ethnic cleansing of TCs from Cyprus - it would achieve the exact same result. I guess you wouldn't have a problem with that either? Or only when Greek Cypriots are ethnically cleansed is ok for you?

You also choose your events to lambast the TC's and build mistrust. It goes both ways. In-fact, might I say by endlessly reading this forum that it is you specifically that is constantly bringing up the past and hurling insults at the TC's then casually telling everyone you have no bad intentions... to stop the situation today, the environment you create prevents it...

I never bring up the past first. When people like you bring up the past in order to excuse the crimes of today I have to reply, right?

I've already told you..... what you are saying is not a method, it is a RESULT, to get to this result you need a process and this process must involve the building of trust and friendship.

And I also told you that respect comes before trust and friendship. How can trust and friendship be build when not even our basic human rights are respected? The first step is respect. Trust comes after, and friendship comes later. Without respect their is no trust there is no friendship.

You haven't responded to what I'm telling you about TC fears of reunification and the life of TCs in the South now.... WHY would they want to live as inferiors

GCs are not even allowed to have a life in the north apart from being tourists. Thats much worst, don't you think?
Nobody is inferior. But when the 18% of TCs grabbed the 37% of land and the 82% of GCs was forced in the 63% of land, don't you think it is obvious that GCs would want to at least keep that 63% for themselves? Your theory is: Let the 18% of TCs keep the 37% of land just for themselves, and the rest 63% should be shared between GCs and TCs. WTF?
Why don't you support the simultaneous end of problem for both TCs and GCs. Asking from GCs to solve the problem of TCs, while the TCs keep violating our rights, is not going to work.

The GC side in the event of a solution is stronger, which is why the TCs need security.

How is it stronger with a country of 60 million that keeps on invading us right on top of us? Sorry, you make no sense.

Cyprus has been conquered endlessly by different civilizations, the extreme past TODAY is irrelevant in finding a solution. It's no use calling your TC compatriots barbarians... Greeks have quite a violent history as well. Europe and the world all have violent backgrounds. Move on.....

Oh, ok. There is a point in history which suits TCs. Anything before that point is "extreme past", anything after that point is excused, the crimes of TCs during that point are forgotten, and all it remains are the crimes of GCs, that now they have to be punished with even more crimes against them. right?
Why do you have to use a selective part of history in order to excuse more crimes against us?

They demand a separate zone where TC's can gain security for themselves against GC intimidation.

You still didn't say why this separate zone has to be 37% or 29% when they are the 18%. Since you didn't answer I will tell you why: Because like it is the case with everything else (power share etc) they are using force to gain more than what proportionately belongs to them on our loss.

I repeat that I do not condone occupation or invasion, but I believe personally, that in order to persuade them that they do not need a separate zone to achieve security, you have to show them you are friends and countrymen, again through trust-building measures..... which, so far, have been non-existant and if anything the GC side constantly displays hostility and accusations .... whenever a TC gesture is made, it is lambasted instead of returned....

Ohhh , really dear tcklim? So the occupation of our country and the ethnic cleansing is an act of such a love for us, and we are the hostile ones, right? What TC gesture was made that helped even one bit our human rights? Tell me.

I prefer not to take sides

But you clearly do.

you in particular, are always portraying extreme views from the GC persepctive and gains only

I am portraying extreme views? Maybe I have to remind you that before 1960 Greek Cypriots wanted enosis and TCs wanted partition. Those were the extreme views. Have you ever seen me advocating enosis? On the other hand your TC friends in here not only the talk about partition, they support the de facto partition and the "TRNC" as well.
All I ask for is democracy and human rights. Since when these things are extreme??? The extremists are exactly those that do not accept these principles, not me.

You have.... through the hostility in your posts. You claim you want this but you offer no mechanism to achieve it. By telling Turkey to f off and get out of here without offering any security for TC's to reassure them you can coexist peacefully, they won't do it, cos they won't believe you.... there is racism and discrimination at TC's living in the SOuth since the invasion right now.... no discrimination against GC's doesnt mean no discrimination against TC's in a unified country...

My posts are hostile towards racists that advocate the discrimination of people based on their race, religion and language. Should I like such racists?
Have you seen me been hostile against people that accept democracy and human rights (and therefore respect me), like Birkibrisli who is also a TC?

The mechanism I offer to TCs is the same one that exists in every democratic country in the whole world. I, unlike others, do not tailor the solution to my needs in order to violate the human rights of others.

Again a colourful storybook picture of it.... just by saying on paper you have a country with respect for human rights and a constitution doesn't make it one...... aka TC's in the SOuth right now are discriminated against. To make it reality, you have to instill it in the mentality, and your mentality shows that TCs will not enjoy this colourful rosy picture...

And what about the GCs? What you propose is the end of the problems of TCs while the violations of the human rights of GCs continues. If they will have no problem, and that the same time they will keep our land, then what will motivate them for a solution? The love for GCs?
What I propose is the end of the problems of both sides simultaneously. Don't you think that this is much more fair?

I accept GC mistakes and i Understand TC concerns.

Yes, GCs have only mistakes and TCs have only concerns. Oh, wait, we have already established your objectivity right?

You do not understand. You focus only on GC concerns.

I focus on universal concerns. I am not asking for Cyprus to be made Greek island, or for GReek to be the only official language etc. I am asking for democracy and human rights for everybody. If TCs have security concerns then there are 1000 way to solve them. Violating the human rights of GCs is not one of them.
I have no respect for people that believe that the way of solving problems (e.g. security) is racist discrimination and ethnic cleansing.

My TC friend living in the south does not himself go around waving turkish flags and supporting the occupation. He wants a solution. But he is now forced to leave Cyprus because he just can't find good work and is constantly discriminated against by GC's. How can this possibly contribute to goodwill and trust in order to build a united country that respects both sides human rights????

It does not. However why you are so one sided on this? Greek Cypriots in the occupied areas didn't leave because they couldn't find a job, they left at gun point and they are still not allowed to return to their own homes. How can this possibly contribute to goodwill and trust in order to build a united country that respects both sides human rights????

Trust and goodwill do not work one way. Today RoC gives to the TCs much more than GCs are allowed to have in the occupied areas. Isn't it time that Turkey did some steps as well, e.g. to give back Famagusta? Why do you expect steps to be made only by RoC without any response from the occupation force?

You have control over the only legitimate and recognized government in Cyprus and control over all the wealth that that provides. To gain the control you speak of, you have to factor in TC's in your definition of Cypriot... if you factor in GCs only then you already have total control. The bases are a very limited area and they are here by agreement, they do not influence government decisions on the Cyprus problem. You do not ask Turkey or Britain squat with regard to TC negotiations. That's because you don't even try to have any negotiations.

Dude, we are having negotiations for 30 years and at no point the Turks showed respect to us by accepting that the solution should not be the one that violated our human rights. They have always insisted on human rights violations against us.
when this attidute will change then negotiations will bring result. If with negotiations we are expected to compromise our human and democratic rights then no result can be achieved. Would you personally be willing to compromise your human rights and your property? If you are let me know.

Noone is forcing anything on you now

sure, except from the illegal occupation of 1/3rd of our island. But thats a minor thing for you I guess.

You're wasting your time trying to FORCE a solution... you cannot FORCE a solution, it will only be achieved through reconciliation. You've had a forced solution before and that obviously didn't work

I didn't say I want to force a solution. I said that the occupation force will leave with force only. Do you know many occupation forces that left the occupied areas when they were not forced to do it? I mean the Allies could sit and discuss with Hitler for ages about ending the occupation of Europe. Somehow I think that wouldn't work though.

[peace4cyprus]

Hello!

Piratis, the problem is not so much with what you say as with how you say it.

Your attitude is quite aggressive I might say. Why don't you try to put your arguments forward in a friendlier way?

tcklim,

I am very sorry about your friend. Such events deeply sadden me. The solution would indeed be much easier if the Turkish Cypriots that live here were treated not as enemies but as equal compatriots.

Please do not come to the wrong conclusions though. Today almost all Greek Cypriots have a refugee in their family. They feel the injustice caused by the occupation and many of them associate this injustice with Turkish Cypriots. We have to work hard in order to end the discrimination against people like your friend. Turkish Cypriots should help us for this though. It is much harder to convince other Greek Cypriots that Turkish Cypriots are not our enemies when some TCs persist that the violation of the GC human rights is a necessary ingredient for a solution.

Thanks

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I asked you to tell me what from what I said was "bloody". What did you do? You throw empty accusations of "bloodimindness" again without explaining why.

Piratis the meaning for bloody minded is as follows;

stubbornly obstructive and unwilling to cooperate.

Just go back and read your posts you will then understand why I have labelled you a bloody minded hardliner.

This clarification suits your overall attitude and will bring you nothing but stale mate which obviously you seem happy with as you do not show any signs of showing a more fleixbile attitude towards negotiating your way to human rights and legality for all Cypriots.

Although I have attempted to approach your arguements with a compromised attitude it has got me absoulutely nowhere. Without a second thought you dismiss anything I have to say and your bloody mindedness continues to blinker your vision to the bigger picture. You are trying to get to level 10 before going through any other level, well it doesnt happen that way so the sooner you realize that although we both want the same things we can only reach that ultimate goal through negotiating a road map of how to get there. This of course needs will, vision and compromise none of which you appear to display, so you should not be disappointed if we do not move forward for a long time to come.

You conveniently lay blame for the current situation on the door of the TCs but then contradict yourself by saying that both sides contributed to the culmination of 1974 and the division we have today.

What we have been doing over the past 31 years and the Annan plan is just one example of us trying to resolve our differencies and set up a united country that would provide a fair balance for the maximum number of its citizens under our unique situation.

Your constant chant of human rights and legalities (which you currently have the opportunity of showing us in the south is very dubious and questionable can you imagine what this would be like for TCs in a united Cypurs? without any mechanism that would ensure that this would not be possible, frighteningwe would be at the mercy of and administration that we do not trust to ensure our human right and legal rights, the knife cuts both ways) is all well and good but you ommit to clarify exactly how you intend to get there? if you do not intend to negotiate. In a situation where trust and respect are not an issue then you are 100% correct but our evolution ensures that we have to take the necessary steps to ensure that one community can not dominate the other as you appear to be advocating when you use the smoke screen of human rights and legalities, we will not be reduced to the status of any other minority in the world as the TCs GCs example is unique and needs to resolved with a mechanism that will address its uniqueness.

I know you hate me because I ask for our human rights and the land that you stole from us, but this is not a reason to accuse me of "bloodimindness".

I dont hate anyone but I hate your attitude and obvious need for vengence and bloody mindedness when trying to resolve our differences. Why cant you understand that we TCs do not want to take away your human and legal rights but the current situation we find ourselves in today is exactly what we are trying to resolve but if both sides adopt your mentality we have the current stalemate which will take us nowhere fast, if you are happy with the appraoch then continue to follow this route and wait for results that your right to do so.

I have not stolen anyones land so please refrain from accusing me of doing so it only adds to displaying the bitterness and vengence you store inside your mind and heart.

If this is the case then why do you try in negotiations to limit their number as much as possible? Do you disagree with the policy that your leadership had so far?

The Annan plan was a compromise, negotiated through all the different versions it did not drop out of the sky and obvioulsy the end result was not acceptable to GCs. My leaders are trying to address the property issue and you will see things develop over the coming months, what is your side doing to address TCs property issues, still secretly selling them off to invesment companies, while accusing the other side you should really make sure you own side is in order, which we are finding out is not, you just hide it well until it comes to light, just makes you think what else is hidden.

The agreements have not been "ours" since there is no part in the agreements for 1/3rd of Cyprus occupied by Turkey and for ethnic cleansing. Have it ever passed your mind that those agreements didn't work because TCs were given way more than any other minority in the world and that if a change should be made to make them workable it should be one that will give to the Turkish Cypriot minority what is given to the minorities of all other democratic countries?

Those agreement are the "RoC" if they are not yours then the country you live in today does not exist. No it never crossed my mind as 3 years was not enough time to see if they worked it was obvious that GCs even when signing these agreements had not intention of making them work and within a very short time the rights which GCs agreed to were trying to be erased. Would you trust such a partner ever again??

Piratis get this in your head we are just not any minority and you have to come to terms with working with us as equal partners, when you accept this fact then you may make some progress.

TCs insist on violating the human rights and punishing Greek Cypriots by insisting on the illegality as we speak, right at this very moment.
Did you have a federal state in the 1960 agreements? Did you have a power share of the degree that you demand now? You take more that had in the 1960 agreements that were already too much for your 18% minority. What do we take in return is the violations of our human and democratic rights and nothing else.

If you wanted what we wanted then you wouldn't accept the Annan partition plan either due to the violations of the human and democratic rights of people.
If we both want the return of all refugees, the respect of the human rights of everyone, and equality without racism among all Cypriots, then this matters should be beyond negotiation. You negotiate things that there is a disagreement. Not things that we agree. The fact is that those things were negotiated because you simply didn't want them. You tried to limit the right of return and the human rights of Greek Cypriots as much as possible. On the other hand, we asked for no restriction on your human and democratic rights.

The day you are willing to display a more flexible attitude and negotiate is the day you will take the steps necessary to resolving our differences and reaching that ultimate goal of human rights and legality for all Cypriots in a united island.

In democratic countries there are equal citizens. Not citizens that have 4.5 times more voting power that the rest because they belong to an "elite" race/community.
You just say that the leaders should negotiate but you don't tell us your opinion of how the human and democratic rights of all Cypriots will be respected.
If you disagree with the policies of Turkey and your leadership, that so far were negotiating hard to limit our human and democratic rights as much as possible then say it, and tell us your opinion.

Piratis BBF is the only way forward 2 equal states living side by side united under a federal roof as one country pretty much along the lines of the Annan plan but taking into consideration the GC concerns. We have in past posts argued many issues which are of concern to GCs so the only real way to address these would be through dialogue between our leaders and seeing we have none of this at the current time we are unable to resolve our differencies and produce a plan that both sides could say yes to.

Let me put a question to you Piratis, what if GCs reneged on any future agreements? what mechanism do you think we should have in place to ensure this does not happen?

[pantheman]

Viewpoint and tcklim;

At first i thought you were talking sense, but the more posts of yours that i read the worst it gets.

Viewpoint you accused peratis of being bloody mindednedss, but you want to hear your self, i think it is you who is the bloody minded one. You are typical of many TCs (obvious from the postings) who are accusing the GC of everything. The bottomline is you want us to negotiate, yeah negotiate for what was already ours in the first place.

And whats this bollocks about GC reneing there side of the agreement, you think they are going to take up arms and go shoot some TCs. What utter crap. This is the 21st century mate, it may have escaped you attantion, but its Turkey that goes round killing people who don't agree with them. (Just check you turkish press for the line up). We are in Europe, we have total respect for human rights, i bet you cannot same the same euh ??

So please, give us a break, cut the oh but you might kill us all later on lark, you know its rubbish you talk.

Tcklim.

You are such a hypocrit, you clain you do not take sides, Huh you could have fooled me, just listen you your self talk. You have such hatred for the GCs, its apparent from the way you say is, as viewpoint says.

You say you are not TC, but you show such contempt for the GCs, this brings me to suspect that either :

1. you are turkish (from mainland) which is why you have clearly sided with the TCs

2. You have married a TC woman so you are taking her side

3. You are a foreigner with illigal interests in the north so you write pro TCs hoping to win what you have taken.

either way, it can be the only reason you speak such ill of the GCs.

I have had just about enough on this subject, all you get is the TCs whinging how the are the victims and the hard done by. No no no, it is Turkey thata has illegally invaded cyprus, It is Turkey hold Cyprus to ranson with its millitary force and presence and it is Turkey that is ethnically cleansing GCs from the north, it is Turkey that is voilating every international law, UN resolutions and EU judgements that has been legally passed and it is Turkey who is not prepared to return Cyprus to its rightful owners. And you want the GCS to apologise, negotiate and bend over and take it up the sh#ter. I don't think so.

The Anan plan was as bent as you can get it, it was written by the british for britain and turkey and then when the GCs refused it, they are the bad guys, give us a break, Kofie is as bent as they come for as long as the USA are paying his wages don't expect any favours. In fact i think the UN should be tried for crimes against humanity.

So, if you really want to settle this, get turkey the hell off the island with their troops and all the displaced mainlanders and lets talk. Don't expect GCs to come to the table and show goodwill when you have 40,000+ troops pointing guns and then expect fairness. I think it would be the GCs who should be afraid of being killed not the TCs.

Enough said

Pantheman

P.S. Stop giving us the sob stories and give us back our freedom and country.

[bg_turk]

Viewpoint,

When you deal with hardliners, whose positions are immovable, you have to ensure that your position is as immovable as rock as well. The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus should not make any concessions to the demands of the administration of the south. It should not give back even an inch of land.

Some people in the South thought they could get more concessions by rejecting the Annan Plan by using their EU leverage. Well, they could not me more wrong, thanks to them the Annan Plan is now dead and void, the Turkish Cypriots yes has been nullified, and Turkish Cypriots have no obligations towards this plan. TCs have receíved a slap in the face while their hand was still extended in peace, and I hope the bitterness of this experience will make them reconsider any future union with the hostile administration of the South. The Annan Plan would have rendered the TC administration very vulnarable and would have exposed it to the salami tactics of the greeks of slowly eroding the participation of the TC in the government; the state envisaged by Annan would have sooner or later degrade into a unitary state, rendering TCs as subjects of a greek dominated state.The citizens of the TRNC should never again renounce their soveregnity over any of their homeland which has been established with the blood of hundreds of soldiers and civilians.

The TRNC is an independent state whose soveregnity and territorial integrity are inviolable.

Has the TRNC violated the human rights of Greek Cypriots? Certainly, it has, and it should remedy this unfortunate situation not by abolishing itself but by reestablishing the rights of the unfairly displaced greek cypriots as equal citizens of the TRNC. The land of GCs should be returned under the jurisdiction of the TRNC by the institutions of the TRNC.

[Viewpoint]

pantheman thank you for constructive criticism.

At first i thought you were talking sense, but the more posts of yours that i read the worst it gets.

What has changed in my arguements that have changed them from making sense to not making sense? The content is still the same reunification negotiations to formulate a BBF under a Federal structure.

Viewpoint you accused peratis of being bloody mindednedss, but you want to hear your self, i think it is you who is the bloody minded one.

He is bloody minded because he is "stubbornly obstructive and unwilling to cooperate"he does not want to negotiate or clarify exactly how we will get to level 10 without going through the other levels, we need a road map yet he persists with not seeing this and demanding that return back to the 1960 agreements. Which dont forget the GC reneged on but today hold so dearly and ask us to return to get real they will try to force a modern day 13 point Tassos plan on within a very short period of time. We are not stupid and will never return to the "RoC" thats dead for us, if you havent noticed the state of play had changed completely and the solution has to be negotiated like it or not.

You are typical of many TCs (obvious from the postings) who are accusing the GC of everything. The bottomline is you want us to negotiate, yeah negotiate for what was already ours in the first place.

I have very particular in not trying to blame GCs and saying many times the the current situation was the result of mistakes both communites made back in time that we woudl rather try to forget. If we was to resolve our difference can you please ecplain how we go about doing this if we are not to negotiate? Dont forget it was the GCs that opened Pandoras box and now you cry for the rights you had back then well my friend with all due respect you should have thought about that back when you had the chance, now the whole situation has changedand we can only move forward if we address what we have in front of us.

And whats this bollocks about GC reneing there side of the agreement, you think they are going to take up arms and go shoot some TCs. What utter crap. This is the 21st century mate, it may have escaped you attantion, but its Turkey that goes round killing people who don't agree with them. (Just check you turkish press for the line up). We are in Europe, we have total respect for human rights, i bet you cannot same the same euh ??

GCs havent got very good track record with TCs when it comes to sticking to agreements, I not talking about taking up arms anymore but the fact that they entered into the 1960 agreements know full well that they were not going to make them work and within a 3 year period they were trying to erase TCs agreed rights. Answer this question would you feel secure entering an agreement with a party that has in the past entered and agreement they were planning to change and reduce your rights within that partnership?
I know that if I were to even consider making the same mistake a second time I would demand safety valves to ensure this could never happen again, are we asking to much?

have had just about enough on this subject, all you get is the TCs whinging how the are the victims and the hard done by. No no no, it is Turkey thata has illegally invaded cyprus, It is Turkey hold Cyprus to ranson with its millitary force and presence and it is Turkey that is ethnically cleansing GCs from the north, it is Turkey that is voilating every international law, UN resolutions and EU judgements that has been legally passed and it is Turkey who is not prepared to return Cyprus to its rightful owners. And you want the GCS to apologise, negotiate and bend over and take it up the sh#ter. I don't think so.

We are not whinging we are expressing our viewpoints on the Cyprus issue no more no less, I believe thats what this forum is for to read others views and comment. ıf you dont like what you read then you can stop visiting this forum that your given right.
Turkey intervened in 1974 becasue of the Greek Coup she had every right under the Guarantee rights, whether she has over stayed in trying to meet her duties is arguable, if we have been unable to find a solution over the last 32 years then surely her duty is to maintain stability which imo she has achieved. If we ever find a formula/solution that will bring about a united Cyprus only then will Turkeys role will come to end and she will leave Cyprus. So if it is your wish for Turkey to leave work on find a solution that would united Cyprus taking into account its uniqueness and refrain from using foul language to convey your viewpoint.

[Piratis]

Piratis the meaning for bloody minded is as follows;

stubbornly obstructive and unwilling to cooperate.

Just go back and read your posts you will then understand why I have labelled you a bloody minded hardliner.

Can you also give me your meaning of "hardliner"? Yes I insist on human rights. This is normal. This is what every EU citizen would insist. Why don't you compromise YOUR human rights if it is not a problem? Your only "compromises" are to give back part of what you stole, something that has always been illegal and never your right.

This clarification suits your overall attitude and will bring you nothing but stale mate which obviously you seem happy with as you do not show any signs of showing a more fleixbile attitude towards negotiating your way to human rights and legality for all Cypriots.

If you also want human rights and legality for all Cypriots then why you have NEVER accepted such thing during the 30 years of negotiations. If you wanted this also, you wouldn't even negotiate it.

Although I have attempted to approach your arguements with a compromised attitude it has got me absoulutely nowhere.

Where was your "compromising attitude"? What part of your human or legal rights did you compromise to ask for the compromise of our human and legal rights?

You are trying to get to level 10 before going through any other level, well it doesnt happen that way so the sooner you realize that although we both want the same things we can only reach that ultimate goal through negotiating a road map of how to get there.

No problem with that. We can negotiate the road-map of how to get there.
However this entails 2 things:
1) That finally, after 30 years of negotiations you will allow it to get there and you will stop to insist that application of human rights is impossible.
2) That "level 10" will be the signed solution, and you will not ask us to sign "level 1" signing away our human and democratic rights.

This of course needs will, vision and compromise none of which you appear to display, so you should not be disappointed if we do not move forward for a long time to come.

I hope you don't mean that to get to "human rights and legality for all Cypriots" we have to compromise our human rights. That would be a self contradicting statement.

You conveniently lay blame for the current situation on the door of the TCs but then contradict yourself by saying that both sides contributed to the culmination of 1974 and the division we have today.

No you lay blame and demand punishment in the form of human rights violations. I on the other hand demand the punishment of nobody and I ask for human rights and democracy for everybody.

What we have been doing over the past 31 years and the Annan plan is just one example of us trying to resolve our differencies and set up a united country that would provide a fair balance for the maximum number of its citizens under our unique situation.

And all these negotiations have been done under the force of the illegal occupation and under the threat that either we accept your terms or the illegal occupation will continue.

Your constant chant of human rights and legalities (which you currently have the opportunity of showing us in the south is very dubious and questionable can you imagine what this would be like for TCs in a united Cypurs? without any mechanism that would ensure that this would not be possible, frighteningwe would be at the mercy of and administration that we do not trust to ensure our human right and legal rights, the knife cuts both ways) is all well and good but you ommit to clarify exactly how you intend to get there?

I never asked you to be under the current government of Papadopoulos. After the solution you will have your share of power (Papadopoulos was elected with 2% difference, you have 18%), you will have your ministers, your vetos etc.
What do you expect? That GCs will just start killing TCs respecting no law? IF this is the case then it wouldn't matter what the law and the constitution is in the first place, right? If GCs wanted to do that, they would have done it already with the 1000s of TCs that gross to the free areas every day. This did not happen, so stop portraying GCs as monsters that want to eat you.
Yes, the rights of TCs today in RoC are limited due to the fact that TCs restrict our own rights in the currently occupied part of Cyprus. This is why it is called a solution because we will end the problem of both sides.

How to get there:
1) We agree on the principles: Human rights for all, democracy, one truly united Cyprus, no racist discriminations.
2) We take care of the concerns of both communities within those principles.
3) We negotiate the details
4) We have a transition period of 10-15 years were we re-integrate and unite the population (ending the hate propaganda, changing the education system to reflect that, allowing refugees slowly slowly to move back, arrange any remaining property issues with compensations, compensating the settlers that will leave (with the help of Turkey), integrating they ones that will stay, bringing the economic level of TC citizens to the same level as the one of GCs etc)
5) We have the result: A normal democratic country like all the rest.

In a situation where trust and respect are not an issue then you are 100% correct but our evolution ensures that we have to take the necessary steps to ensure that one community can not dominate the other as you appear to be advocating when you use the smoke screen of human rights and legalities, we will not be reduced to the status of any other minority in the world as the TCs GCs example is unique and needs to resolved with a mechanism that will address its uniqueness.

TCs and GCs are just people like all the rest. There is nothing so unique in Turkish Cypriots that gives them the right to violate the human and the democratic rights of others. As I said above any negotiations should be done on the framework of democracy and human rights, and not on the basis that GCs have to accept something tailored made for Turkey and TCs that exists nowhere else in the world.

I dont hate anyone but I hate your attitude and obvious need for vengence and bloody mindedness when trying to resolve our differences.

Vengeance? You are the one who demands the punishment of GCs by the restriction of their human rights. I ask for the respect of the human and democratic rights of everybody including the TCs. How is this vengeance?

Why cant you understand that we TCs do not want to take away your human and legal rights but the current situation we find ourselves in today is exactly what we are trying to resolve but if both sides adopt your mentality we have the current stalemate which will take us nowhere fast, if you are happy with the approach then continue to follow this route and wait for results that your right to do so.

They didn't want to take away our human and legal rights? Then why they never accepted that all refugees should be allowed to return to their own homes. This is a very basic human right, which is even confirmed by the ECHR rulings, yet the Turkish side refuses to accept it. If you changed your policy and you are now willing to negotiate on the basis that the human rights of nobody should be violated this would be a very good development. Unfortunately your official leadership didn't show anything in this direction. If you disagree with your official policy on this please tell us. If you agree though don't say that "TCs do not want to take away your human and legal rights" because in fact they (the leadership at least) do.

I have not stolen anyones land so please refrain from accusing me of doing so it only adds to displaying the bitterness and vengence you store inside your mind and heart.

Don't you support the illegal occupation and the illegal "TRNC" which is build on stolen land? If you do you are a thief. If you don't, then you are not and sorry for coming to the wrong conclusion.

The Annan plan was a compromise, negotiated through all the different versions it did not drop out of the sky and obvioulsy the end result was not acceptable to GCs.

It was not a compromise. A compromise is something that is accepted by both sides, like it happened in 1960. The Annan plan was one sided partition plan made by the Americans, tailored made for the needs of Turkey, and has never been accepted by us.

My leaders are trying to address the property issue and you will see things develop over the coming months, what is your side doing to address TCs property issues, still secretly selling them off to invesment companies, while accusing the other side you should really make sure you own side is in order, which we are finding out is not, you just hide it well until it comes to light, just makes you think what else is hidden.

You are shameless. You have issued fake property deeds and gave away ALL Greek Cypriot property, and you compare that with one case that happened in the free areas????

Those agreement are the "RoC" if they are not yours then the country you live in today does not exist.

The illegal occupation violates those agreements. RoC exists, but not in the form it should since it is partly occupied.

No it never crossed my mind as 3 years was not enough time to see if they worked it was obvious that GCs even when signing these agreements had not intention of making them work and within a very short time the rights which GCs agreed to were trying to be erased. Would you trust such a partner ever again??

And the TCs never tried to make those agreements work since partition is what they were planning for.
If it never passed your mind then it should pass now: One of the main reasons that those agreements didn't work is because TCs were given way more than any other minority in the world. This should become a lesson for the future. There are already many countries with minorities, and we should take examples from them instead of pretending the TCs are the "super minority". When you give to a minority of 18% the 30% of governmental jobs it will obviously become a problem. This is why I insist that the 18% of TCs should get what proportionately belongs to them so there will be injustice against nobody.

Piratis get this in your head we are just not any minority and you have to come to terms with working with us as equal partners, when you accept this fact then you may make some progress.

The fact is that 18% is minority. Not just a fact, it is also common sense.

The day you are willing to display a more flexible attitude and negotiate is the day you will take the steps necessary to resolving our differences and reaching that ultimate goal of human rights and legality for all Cypriots in a united island.

We were negotiating for 30 years and in all these years you never accepted that our human rights should be respected.

Would you be willing to negotiate on the basis that the human, legal and democratic rights of everybody should be respected and that any negotiations should be made without compromising these universally accepted principles?

Piratis BBF is the only way forward 2 equal states living side by side united under a federal roof as one country pretty much along the lines of the Annan plan but taking into consideration the GC concerns.

The Annan plan was not a federation. It was based on the Swiss confederation but it was even weaker than that.
USA is a federation. Do people have different rights based on their race there? Are human rights violations needed to maintain USA? Are USA citizens restricted from becoming residents of any state the choose?

The Annan plan was a disguised partition. With Annan plan I would be more united and have more rights in Lithuania than I would have in the north part of my own country. "Unity" was only in the name.

Let me put a question to you Piratis, what if GCs reneged on any future agreements? what mechanism do you think we should have in place to ensure this does not happen?

The mechanisms that exist in all countries. We could have EU and UN as guarantors, and we within the framework of human rights and democracy we could negotiate ways that would limit this possibility.

However if we will play the "what if" game, then what if Turks invade Cyprus again? They did it in 1571 and again in 1974. What can stop them from doing it again?

Should we demand the ethnic cleansing of Turks from our area and to send them to Australia in order to avoid the risk? NO. In the same way you can not demand the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots from the north part of their own country by using lame "what if" excuses.

[bg_turk]

Can you also give me your meaning of "hardliner"? Yes I insist on human rights. This is normal. This is what every EU citizen would insist.

This is not true. If it were true you would not dismiss every attempt by the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to respect the human rights of Greek Cypriots as exemplified by your attitude to recent property comission set up my the administration in the North.

Your so-called insistance on human rights is simply a camouflage to your true agenda of annexing the TRNC and eroding its soveregnity.

[Piratis]

The TRNC is an independent state whose soveregnity and territorial integrity are inviolable.

Do you believe in the Santa Claus? What gifts did he bring you this year?

You can choose to be as hardliner as you want bg_turk. The fact is that while we insist on legality, human rights and democracy, you insist on illegality and human right violations.

Yes I will insist on those universally accepted principles, and I couldn't care less if the racists that insist on the discrimination of people based on their race and human rights violations, call me "hardliner" because I insist on principles.