Cyprus-Forum.com

[growuptcs]

Turkey and TC's are still trying to sell to the world that their not treated fairly and that they deserve to keep N.Cyprus all for themselves. Two words of advice already, GROW UP.Your all not good salesmen, especially, your politicians. It might fly in the world you visit when you go to sleep, but not in the real world. Please stop, stop, stop. Your feelings dont count at this point, seriously. Ignoring Greeks feelings on their property is disgusting. And you wont go on any further till you keep what you stole. I think you know by now that the Greeks are not folding. War isn't the option, cause you can't defend whats not yours.
I do believe that their are alot of educated Turks, (ones that know how to reason) that the only way forward is to get rid of the army first, give the properties back to the ones who have the deeds, and then negotiate. Instead let me tell you what your asking for
1. Open N.Cyprus ports, lift embargoes
2.You keep S.Cyprus, we'll keep N.Cyprus at your expense
3.50/50 city/governmental jobs, when your 18%
And then you want to negotiate the rest, only 2 words(GROW UP)
I know the TC's reading this are disgruntled at my post, but thats what Greeks feel like every time we read the news, your posts, and your attitudes.Its not called a stalemate, its called getting spoiled being a big nations pet and using their powers to bark and complain.
Obviously you all like this situation that your in right now, because your all waiting one morning to wake up and believe the Greeks are going to say OK we cant take this anymore keep our land.GROW UP

[zan]

[Rude Gal]

In response to growuptcs posting:

"Instead let me tell you what your asking for
1. Open N.Cyprus ports, lift embargoes
We want all embargoes to end, this discrimination is wrong and for Greek Cypriots to pursue a ruthless policy of isolation shows that there is little hope of power sharing when our rights are blatantly violated. And this for what? For the Greek Cypriot refugees? We have refugees too and we do not seek to prevent you exercising your other human rights.

Do you know Turkish Cypriots cannot even play a friendly game of football due to GC objections. This situation has existed since 1955!!!!! Is that acceptable? Where is the spirit of friendship?

We can't solve the refugee problem till the Cyprus conflict is over. We can sort out current attitudes and behaviour. Example, end embargoes against TC either by accepting TCs have right to own rep (e.g. in sports - from 1960 Constitution) or we create a power-sharing mechanism between two sides. For football, I believe the TC Football Associationis proposing the latter to CFA and FIFA. If there can't even be consensus on this area and the embargoes continue then I say there is no hope for a one state solution.

What can TCs do in return? Not so much as they are far weaker. One area, facilitate better links between GCs and Turkey - grow economy and build cultural ties that benefit us all. You may say EU will sort that out, but doing things through love not fear/threats means a better outcome all round.

As Piratis says on another thread, we must stop seeing each other as opponents. If we cannot respect each other in the present and ensuring we can all llive as equals (even if for time being it's in separate zones), we have no chance of putting right past mistakes.

2.You keep S.Cyprus, we'll keep N.Cyprus at your expense
Cyprus is the common homeland of two nations, Greek & Turkish Cypriots. They couldn't share power. Now they are apart - and there is peace. We can go back to bad old days or we can show we can share power. We need a real mental shift here. TCs gains should not be seen as GC losses, after all if you had had evry aspect of your life embargoed for 41 years, I would be ready to campaign shoulder-to-shoulder with you to end that discrimination.

Great sacrifice for great rewards (I ching).

3.50/50 city/governmental jobs, when your 18%
I never get this 18% stat. How does any GC know what proportion TCs make when you have not had any administrative access to 99% of TCs in Cyprus since 1974? Or is this the number what was left after all the ethnic cleansing our people experienced between 1955-1974 (FYI my own father wasn't permitted entry into his own country from 1964-70 and when he was, it was only a 2 week permit!!!)?

I do know today's split is closer 1/3 to 2/3 and every day tons more TCs are moving back to their ethnic homeland. Also, I believe title deeds situation in 1960 was 36% TCs.

So more reality on these types of stats and if we genuinely don't know, let's not use.

I know the TC's reading this are disgruntled at my post, but thats what Greeks feel like every time we read the news, your posts, and your attitudes.
Two wrongs do not make a right - your attitude and points do not help!

We must learn to trust one another and respect each other's needs, then we can make a huge leap of faith and change all Cyprus for the better.

One Love

[Piratis]

As Piratis says on another thread, we must stop seeing each other as opponents.

Yes. But if you insist on violating our human rights and illegally keep the land that we have inhabited for 3500 years then you choose not only to be our opponents but to be our enemies.

What I suggested is that we stop all illegalities and the human rights of everybody are respected. What you are asking for is that we allow you to solve your problem while you insist on violating our human rights. Sorry, but friendship goes both ways. We are either friends, or we are enemies. The 3rd way of "Treat us like friends while we treat you like enemies" does not exist.

Therefore if you accept my proposal you should accept that the human and legal rights of everybody should be respected without any kind of discrimination.

Cyprus is the common homeland of two nations, Greek & Turkish Cypriots. They couldn't share power. Now they are apart - and there is peace.

There is no peace, there is cease fire because Turkey is still occupying our land. If for you separation is a prerequisite for peace then you have the right to move out of Cyprus. To perform ethnic cleansing and violate our human rights is not your right though.

TCs gains should not be seen as GC losses, after all if you had had evry aspect of your life embargoed for 41 years, I would be ready to campaign shoulder-to-shoulder with you to end that discrimination.

Great sacrifice for great rewards (I ching).

Your "embargo" was a bigger sacrifice that the ethnic cleansing that you performed against us?? The embargo is a result of your illegal actions. You are the 18% and for 31 years you have been illegally occupying the 37%. You were and still are outlaws and instead of punishment for that you expect rewards on our expense???

And by the way, were was our reward for the 300 years of Ottoman oppression that we had to go throw as well?

You have been the oppressors and the aggressors in 99% of our common history in Cyprus, and now you come here to tell us that you expect "great rewards" for your "great sacrifice"? Get real.

I never get this 18% stat. How does any GC know what proportion TCs make when you have not had any administrative access to 99% of TCs in Cyprus since 1974? Or is this the number what was left after all the ethnic cleansing our people experienced between 1955-1974 (FYI my own father wasn't permitted entry into his own country from 1964-70 and when he was, it was only a 2 week permit!!!)?

Here we go with more Turkish propaganda. The Turks have been the ones who have mastered the "science" of ethnic cleansing and genocide, they have done little more in their history other than killing, raping and stealing the land of others, and now they come here to give us lame excuses as to why their barbarian traditions should continue. Why can't you for once accept human rights and democracy???

18% is the recorded percentage of TCs since when the British were ruling. If you brought settlers from Turkey and named them Cypriots now this doesn't change the status of these illegal settlers and your percentage.

Also, I believe title deeds situation in 1960 was 36% TCs.

Actually it was even less than 18%. Soon you are going to tell us that TCs were the big landlords of Cyprus and they owned twice as much their population percentage. What other nonsense are you going to say in order to excuse the percentage that you forcefully and illegally took from us with the invasion?

We must learn to trust one another and respect each other's needs, then we can make a huge leap of faith and change all Cyprus for the better.

Respect the others needs? No, we should respect each others human and democratic rights the way they are respected in all other EU countries. If you have a "need" for committing crimes and human rights violations then you should change your "needs", not to expect from us to accept such things.

[Rude Gal]

Piratis, you have such bitterness within you. I pity you.

[bg_turk]

Therefore if you accept my proposal you should accept that the human and legal rights of everybody should be respected without any kind of discrimination.

Yes, and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus has taken steps towards reinstating the properties of displaced persons. The human rights of all citizens and residents of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus should be respected regardless of ethnic origin. Of course the TRNC cannot have any obligations towards towards those who seek to undermine its soveregnity and have malicious intentions against that state.

Here we go with more Turkish propaganda. The Turks have been the ones who have mastered the "science" of ethnic cleansing and genocide, they have done little more in their history other than killing, raping and stealing the land of others, and now they come here to give us lame excuses as to why their barbarian traditions should continue.

BULLSHIT! Look at yourself in the mirror.
Greece is the first country to have performed ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in 1911, when Turks did not even know the meaning of that term.
Greece is the only country in the Balkans to have continously expanded throughout its history by ruthlessly annexing territories, and cleansing them of all non-greeks including slavs, turks, pomaks, albanians.
Its attempt to annex Cyprus and cleanse it of Turkish Cypriots fortunately ended in failure thanks to the actions of Turkey. The turkish intervention resulted in a lot of suffering for ordinary greek cypriots some of whom were expelled from their homeland. The authorities of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus with the backing of Turkey are now working towards rectifying this situation by reinstating the lost properties of displaced persons. Meanwhile there is little hope of returning for the hundreds of thousands individuals expelled from their homeland now occupied by Greece.
Greece is in bad relations with all of its neighbours. Its borders with Bulgaria and Turkey are still mined.

[Rude Gal]

Yes. But if you insist on violating our human rights and illegally keep the land that we have inhabited for 3500 years then you choose not only to be our opponents but to be our enemies.
No, that is how you choose to see us. We are not your enemies. At best your neighbours. With more love, trust and respect, your friends.

The 3rd way of "Treat us like friends while we treat you like enemies" does not exist.
Of course there is a third way. If you were my enemy I would seek to disable or destroy you. That is not my intention. It is to find way to share our common homeland of Cyprus. Your ‘black and white’ approach is unrealistic and extreme. There are many other ways, as the many posts (from many quarters) on this forum testify.

There is no peace, there is cease fire because Turkey is still occupying our land.
No they are here by right. Treaty of Gurantee. Even the Greek Supreme Court upheld that!

And it would seem that only with their ongoing presence and support, both militarily and economically have we been able to survive. Your approach and hatred will change nothing; it merely reinforces that we need to stay close to Turkey for our own protection.

If for you separation is a prerequisite for peace then you have the right to move out of Cyprus. Same goes for you Piratis. In fact if all the hate moved out of Cyprus, we could really have something special. Let the hippies reign!

To perform ethnic cleansing and violate our human rights is not your right though.
No, and neither is it for Greek Cypriots. Yet they have and (through the inhumane embargoes) continue to violate our rights. Even now, your people refused to name Turkish as an official language in the “RoC” for the EU (against 1960 Constitution), it refuses to provide the provision of Turkish in its sole school in Limassol where Turkish Cypriots remain, Greek Cypriots like you and your official education system continues to preach hatred against Turks.

I’m not saying Turkish Cypriots have got it bang on. But at least Talat & co are trying.

Your "embargo" was a bigger sacrifice that the ethnic cleansing that you performed against us?? The embargo is a result of your illegal actions.
No. The embargoes started in 1955 and were increased by March 1964 to affect all aspects of life. You would do well to check the UN archives and many other sources that testify to the inhumane hardships Turkish Cypriots endured way before 1974. Your selective version of history kids no one informed…and many more people are finding about just how Greek Cypriots have & continue to treat Turkish Cypriots. And of course, for the last 31 years, the world has a pretty good understanding of the Greek Cypriot trauma (they were just misinformed about the whole picture)

And by the way, were was our reward for the 300 years of Ottoman oppression that we had to go throw as well?
Life and times. The Ottoman empire was neither the first nor the last empire. It was certainly one of the most tolerant (as empires go that is) – as I wrote to you in an earlier posting, Greek Cypriots were liberated by the Ottomans from their slave-like existence under their Catholic Venetian masters, so they could practice their faith freely (with a tax – but everyone had that) and own/administer their lands/business. I don’t expected gratitude, but this perpetual misrepresentation of history…

"great rewards" for your "great sacrifice"? Get real.
Perhaps your worldview and seemingly limited spiritually prevents you gaining insight into the amazing wisdom that is the I Ching? Never mind…

"barbarian traditions"
Your racism knows no bounds. I take it you live somewhere in the EU? If so, you should be aware that we do not tolerate such incitement to racial hatred. Your labeling of all people of ethnic Turkish/Turkish Cypriot origin is at best distasteful and totally unacceptable. Please alter your language or else I will be forced to make a formal complaint.

Why can't you for once accept human rights and democracy???
I do believe in human rights and democracy. But my view of those terms are different to yours. As I said it an earlier post, one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

And if you have done some political theory reading, you’d know that when it comes to 'democracy' our actions always impact/restrict another’s. We need to find a happy balance based on common values and mutually beneficial applications thereof. We are still on that quest…

18% is the recorded percentage of TCs since when the British were ruling.
I say again, you are in no position to judge the exact number of Turkish Cypriots living in North Cyprus. There will be a census in early 2006 and we will know then.

Also, I do not care who comes to North Cyprus and settles there, respects the laws and enhances the well-being of its people. All are welcome - as I believe they are in South? A lot of Russians, EU citizens, etc have located there. We are not demanding they leave. That really isn’t how the Global Village/open societies work. It would be an abhorrent suggestion in UK – some would say racist – to suggest all immigrants returned to their homeland. I don’t know where in the world you are based Piratis, but I’d say you are out of touch with modern world societies.

Actually it was even less than 18%.
Prove it! My understanding is that we have 36% of title deeds. Since neither of us probably can, we need to agree to disagree. [/i]

[Piratis]

Yes, and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus has taken steps

Illegal pseudo puppet states can take no steps. The only step that can be taken is by Turkey itself and it is to end her illegal occupation of Cyprus.

Greece is the first country to have performed ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in 1911, when Turks did not even know the meaning of that term.

I am sure they didn't know the meaning of many things since in their majority they have been uneducated barbarian hordes that invaded and stole what others had created. Sorry bg_turk, but Turks are renowned to be great conquerors and great warriors, nothing beyond that.

Greece gave to us democracy, and has contributed to a huge degree in philosophy, science and the arts. Greece had founded some of the greatest cities in the area.

Most of the biggest cities in Turkey were created by Greeks (Constantinople, Smirny, Trapezounta etc). Most of what Turks have now was stolen from Greeks.

Greeks after their liberation from the Ottomans naturally took back part of what has always belonged to them. Soon you will tell us that liberating Athens was part of the Greek expansionism

When the illegal occupation will end, and Kerinia will be returned to its legal owners will you talk about "RoC expansionism" bg_turk?

Expansionism my friend is when you steal what does not belong to you. This is what Turks do. Not when you liberate what was originally yours and was taken from you by force.

[zan]

Archbishop Makarios on the invasion of Cyprus by Greece Introduction
On Monday 15 July 1974 the ruling military junta in Greece staged a bloody coup in Cyprus with the collaboration of its supporters in order to achieve immediate Enosis (union with Greece). Makarios, whose aim was to achieve Enosis in the long term, was overthrown. The coupists proclaimed the establishment of "The Hellenic Republic of Cyprus" and installed Nicos Samson, a murderer, who was responsible for murders of many British and Turkish Cypriots in the 50s and 60s, as the president of this "Hellenic Republic".
During the coup more than 3000 Greek Cypriot supporters of Makarios and supporters of the Communist party AKEL were killed and an annihilation plan called AKRITAS was put into effect to exterminate Turkish Cypriot people.
The Archbishop, after escaping from the hands of the Greek soldiers and the Greek Cypriot terrorists went to New York to address the UN Security Council on Friday 19 July 1974.
In his speech, he accused Greece of usurping the democratic rights of both peoples of the island and the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, and trying to extend its dictatorship to Cyprus.
Makarios, who also declared Greece as an invader said that the coup organised by the military regime of Greece on 15 July 1974 was put into effect by the Greek officers serving in and commanding the Cyprus National Guard. In his address Makarios confessed that this was a pre-planned act by Greece and the coupists did not hesitate in shedding blood in Cyprus to remove the obstacles on the way to Enosis.
Makarios, in his speech, called on the world to stop this bloodshed in Cyprus as soon as possible and he interpreted the situation in Cyprus as a 'real tragedy'.

Then in came TURKEY

[Rude Gal]

since in their majority they have been uneducated barbarian hordes that invaded and stole what others had created. Sorry bg_turk, but Turks are renowned to be great conquerors and great warriors, nothing beyond that.

Piratis, you should have visited last year's Turks exhibition at the Royal Academy of Arts (the staff said it was their busiest in years) when it showed the immense wealth and cultural contributions of this race. It showed up the bigotry that exists around Turks. At its height, it far exceeded anything medieval Europe had to offer.

Ancient Greek Civilisation contributed immensely to the world (it is one of my favourite periods of history), and the Byzantian empire left a lasting legacy in modern day Turkey, but that was over 500 years ago. Piratis, please Move On!

And I again ask you to refrain from calling all Turks "barbarians". It is offensive and unnecessary.