Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

Another way to put it: The desire of Greeks to be ruled by Greeks, was a legitimate valid expression of the right to self determination of Greeks (which includes the native people of Cyprus, the native people of Crete, the native people of Rhodes etc etc etc).

Indeed it was a valid expression of of the right to self determination of Greeks who lived in Cyprus. It was not a valid expression of of the right to self determination of a unitary Cypriot people. The difference is everything if you believe in the principals and ideals that underpin the right to self determination of peoples. If you understand, or are willing to understand, what self in self determination means.

If enosis was an expression of the right to self determination of Greeks who lived in Cyprus then you have to accept that there were others that also lived in Cyprus who were not Greek. You can argue these others had no right to a say in what happened in Cyprus, because Cyprus was not their homeland, that they were just colonial rulers of Cyprus with a separate homeland elsewhere. You can (and indeed often do) argue that but no one was or would buy that argument. In 1960 your average TC was not a 'colonial ruler' of Cyprus. They were people who were not Greek and for whom Cyprus had been their home for generation going back hundreds of years. Their Cypriot ancestors were more likely to have been members of Cypriot uprisings made up of both Greek and Turkish Cypriots, against oppression by a ruling elite made up of Ottoman and Greek / GC elites, than they were to have been Ottoman members of that ruling elite.

It is clear to me that all you care about is to misappropriate blame on our side in order to excuse something which is even more unfair than what we had before.

It may be clear to you but that does not mean you are right.

You are unwilling to step into our shoes and see things from our point of view.

I would and do happily step into Bannaniot's shoes and see things from his perspective as he does mine. That is because he has Cypriot shoes, as I do. I can not step into your Greek shoes because I am not Greek.

You are overly critical of our past choices while you give no weight at all to the even worst choices of your own side.

This also is not true, though it is true that there is so little 'space' here in this place on this forum, for me to be able to criticise 'my own side', that it can appear that way.

In the end you align yourself with your leadership and the official Turkish position regardless of your previous claims to the contrary.

This is just not true. Not when judged by what I have said here and elsewhere or judged by what I have done since coming to live in Cyprus.

If you truly wanted a unitary state that would promote Cypriotness above all else you would accept that what we had in the past and until now are two separate sides trying to serve their own interests without any regard to the interests of the Cypriot people as a whole. I gladly accepted your terms, not as a compromise but because I agree with them. Unfortunately it seems you do not accept them yourself... they were just some bluff to try to present yourself as different and maybe try to get us to accept a greater share of blame than what actually belongs to us

That is exactly what I do promote. I promote the idea that we all, as Cypriots, need to choose to place our commonalty as Cypriots ahead of of and before our differences as GC or TC if we are to create a better Cyprus than the one we have achieved to date. I have done so repeatedly here on this forum. Pointing out that the desire for enosis or taksim was not compatible with this ideal is not to 'not support' the idea.

You say you agree with my terms, yet it is still my impression that you have spent years arguing that the desire for enosis was a valid expression of the right to self determination of a Cypriot people and that you are still claiming that even now with you claim that the right applies to 'all people in a territory' and not to a group defined BY some wider commonality ? What is more it is my memory that in the past when I have argued we need to place our common Cypriotness ahead of differences as GC and TC, you yourself were somewhat 'disparaging' of that idea and sought refuge in ascribing all blame to TC for being 'invaders' of Cyprus instead of supporting it ?

cyprus44206-70.html#p828995

[Sotos]

Indeed it was a valid expression of of the right to self determination of Greeks who lived in Cyprus. It was not a valid expression of of the right to self determination of a unitary Cypriot people. The difference is everything if you believe in the principals and ideals that underpin the right to self determination of peoples. If you understand, or are willing to understand, what self in self determination means.

If enosis was an expression of the right to self determination of Greeks who lived in Cyprus then you have to accept that there were others that also lived in Cyprus who were not Greek. You can argue these others had no right to a say in what happened in Cyprus, because Cyprus was not their homeland, that they were just colonial rulers of Cyprus with a separate homeland elsewhere. You can (and indeed often do) argue that but no one was or would buy that argument. In 1960 your average TC was not a 'colonial ruler' of Cyprus. They were people who were not Greek and for whom Cyprus had been their home for generation going back hundreds of years. Their Cypriot ancestors were more likely to have been members of Cypriot uprisings made up of both Greek and Turkish Cypriots, against oppression by a ruling elite made up of Ottoman and Greek / GC elites, than they were to have been Ottoman members of that ruling elite.

Were all the white people transferred by the European colonialists to their colonies part of the ruling elite? Of course not. Did this mean that minorities of colonists had a self-termination right in those colonies? Definitely not. That is like telling me that neither Crete, Rhodes etc had the right to be part of Greece either. The same would be true for many parts of Bulgaria and other countries. In the case of places in Turkey is even worst, since the minorities there were far more ancient that the Turks themselves, and still they didn't get a separate self-determination. If we followed your definition of "self-determination" then we would need to have 10s of thousands of countries. This is not how it works in the real world, which shows that is your interpretation of "self-determination" which is wrong, not mine. The fact is that Cyprus' native population was Greek and Greeks were also the vast majority of the population, which means that Cyprus being part of Greece would not be something unnatural. Of course you can tell me me that this way didn't turn out very good for the minorities (Turks in Greece, Greeks in Turkey etc) and that therefore a true-independence would be better for all in the case of Cyprus. And with that I would agree! Unfortunately you are trying to misappropriate blame on our side to excuse something which would again be unfair instead of being happy that we are in agreement!

I would and do happily step into Bannaniot's shoes and see things from his perspective as he does mine. That is because he has Cypriot shoes, as I do. I can not step into your Greek shoes because I am not Greek.

That is like saying that a Scottish person who recognizes as legitimate the right of the people of Scotland to unite with other Britons (if they choose democratically), is not Scottish. I am Cypriot, both my parents and all my ancestors as far back as I know were Cypriots and I was born and raised in Cyprus. Bananiot would usually say what you want to hear which is why you like him. I don't kiss any asses... I say what I believe, and sometimes I will respond in kind to trolling (you can't reason with trolls) which is why you don't like me. But since you mentioned Bananiot, here is a quote from him: " In my view enosis was a legitimate aspiration of the GC's but the way we went about realising this aspiration eventually brought the burying of the dream." cyprus31767-50.html#p645603

This also is not true, though it is true that there is so little 'space' here in this place on this forum, for me to be able to criticise 'my own side', that it can appear that way.

You don't even need to criticize your own side. Your beliefs can be interpolated based on what you see as the right solution (in 1950s or now). We agreed that a true independence with equality among all Cypriots is the right solution. If you support as a solution something that punishes the GCs and rewards the TCs it follows that you believe that GCs are to be blamed and therefore deserve to be punished, while TCs are not to be blamed and therefore deserve to be rewarded.

This is just not true. Not when judged by what I have said here and elsewhere or judged by what I have done since coming to live in Cyprus.

You are not consistent in what you say. You ask me to accept your terms which are different than those of Turkey and your leadership, I do accept them, and then you switch and align yourself with the official Turkish position.

That is exactly what I do promote. I promote the idea that we all, as Cypriots, need to choose to place our commonalty as Cypriots ahead of of and before our differences as GC or TC if we are to create a better Cyprus than the one we have achieved to date. I have done so repeatedly here on this forum. Pointing out that the desire for enosis or taksim was not compatible with this ideal is not to 'not support' the idea.

Trying to blame only/mostly our side in order to excuse something which is unfair for GCs and benefits the TCs and Turkey on our expense is not compatible with your ideal.

You say you agree with my terms, yet it is still my impression that you have spent years arguing that the desire for enosis was a valid expression of the right to self determination of a Cypriot people and that you are still claiming that even now with you claim that the right applies to 'all people in a territory' and not to a group defined BY some wider commonality ? What is more it is my memory that in the past when I have argued we need to place our common Cypriotness ahead of differences as GC and TC, you yourself were somewhat 'disparaging' of that idea and sought refuge in ascribing all blame to TC for being 'invaders' of Cyprus instead of supporting it ?

Even your friend Bananiot agrees with me that enosis was a legitimate aspiration of the GCs. And I didn't "spent years arguing" about enosis... I am just responding, mainly to you, when you are trying to use those events to unfairly put a disproportionately large blame on us. It is you who seems to be obsessed with enosis, not me. I don't think I ever argued against placing what we have in common above what we have different. What I always argue about is that the differences should be accepted, not oppressed... maybe with time what is common will grow and the differences will diminish... but this can happen only gradually by living together under a system that encourages integration rather than one based on separation and differences.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Even the British colonialists agreed that enosis was a legitimate right and, in fact, the way to peace for Cyprus. And that's it in a nutshell - the ruling imperialists didn't want peace for Cyprus so they denied Cyprus the one thing that would have brought it peace - enosis.

This present awful condition is the outcome of denial of enosis - that we have Turkey occupying half of Cyprus. It is NOT the outcome of the legitimate right to enosis - it is because we were denied enosis that we now have the Turks ruling half our land - cup in hand!

[Lordo]

it was your legitimate right and not accepting it was our legitimate right. you have no business imposing your legitimate right on us. when you understand that you will join the human race, in the mean time

is delya gotsiros rah tourgallua aguses.

[kurupetos]

...i was twenty-one, the first time i tried, not, eating bread with a meal.

...still love lemon.

It's good with beans or... sandwich.

[Lordo]

Indeed it was a valid expression of of the right to self determination of Greeks who lived in Cyprus. It was not a valid expression of of the right to self determination of a unitary Cypriot people. The difference is everything if you believe in the principals and ideals that underpin the right to self determination of peoples. If you understand, or are willing to understand, what self in self determination means.

If enosis was an expression of the right to self determination of Greeks who lived in Cyprus then you have to accept that there were others that also lived in Cyprus who were not Greek. You can argue these others had no right to a say in what happened in Cyprus, because Cyprus was not their homeland, that they were just colonial rulers of Cyprus with a separate homeland elsewhere. You can (and indeed often do) argue that but no one was or would buy that argument. In 1960 your average TC was not a 'colonial ruler' of Cyprus. They were people who were not Greek and for whom Cyprus had been their home for generation going back hundreds of years. Their Cypriot ancestors were more likely to have been members of Cypriot uprisings made up of both Greek and Turkish Cypriots, against oppression by a ruling elite made up of Ottoman and Greek / GC elites, than they were to have been Ottoman members of that ruling elite.

Were all the white people transferred by the European colonialists to their colonies part of the ruling elite? Of course not. Did this mean that minorities of colonists had a self-termination right in those colonies? Definitely not. That is like telling me that neither Crete, Rhodes etc had the right to be part of Greece either. The same would be true for many parts of Bulgaria and other countries. In the case of places in Turkey is even worst, since the minorities there were far more ancient that the Turks themselves, and still they didn't get a separate self-determination. If we followed your definition of "self-determination" then we would need to have 10s of thousands of countries. This is not how it works in the real world, which shows that is your interpretation of "self-determination" which is wrong, not mine. The fact is that Cyprus' native population was Greek and Greeks were also the vast majority of the population, which means that Cyprus being part of Greece would not be something unnatural. Of course you can tell me me that this way didn't turn out very good for the minorities (Turks in Greece, Greeks in Turkey etc) and that therefore a true-independence would be better for all in the case of Cyprus. And with that I would agree! Unfortunately you are trying to misappropriate blame on our side to excuse something which would again be unfair instead of being happy that we are in agreement!

I would and do happily step into Bannaniot's shoes and see things from his perspective as he does mine. That is because he has Cypriot shoes, as I do. I can not step into your Greek shoes because I am not Greek.

That is like saying that a Scottish person who recognizes as legitimate the right of the people of Scotland to unite with other Britons (if they choose democratically), is not Scottish. I am Cypriot, both my parents and all my ancestors as far back as I know were Cypriots and I was born and raised in Cyprus. Bananiot would usually say what you want to hear which is why you like him. I don't kiss any asses... I say what I believe, and sometimes I will respond in kind to trolling (you can't reason with trolls) which is why you don't like me. But since you mentioned Bananiot, here is a quote from him: " In my view enosis was a legitimate aspiration of the GC's but the way we went about realising this aspiration eventually brought the burying of the dream." cyprus31767-50.html#p645603

This also is not true, though it is true that there is so little 'space' here in this place on this forum, for me to be able to criticise 'my own side', that it can appear that way.

You don't even need to criticize your own side. Your beliefs can be interpolated based on what you see as the right solution (in 1950s or now). We agreed that a true independence with equality among all Cypriots is the right solution. If you support as a solution something that punishes the GCs and rewards the TCs it follows that you believe that GCs are to be blamed and therefore deserve to be punished, while TCs are not to be blamed and therefore deserve to be rewarded.

This is just not true. Not when judged by what I have said here and elsewhere or judged by what I have done since coming to live in Cyprus.

You are not consistent in what you say. You ask me to accept your terms which are different than those of Turkey and your leadership, I do accept them, and then you switch and align yourself with the official Turkish position.

That is exactly what I do promote. I promote the idea that we all, as Cypriots, need to choose to place our commonalty as Cypriots ahead of of and before our differences as GC or TC if we are to create a better Cyprus than the one we have achieved to date. I have done so repeatedly here on this forum. Pointing out that the desire for enosis or taksim was not compatible with this ideal is not to 'not support' the idea.

Trying to blame only/mostly our side in order to excuse something which is unfair for GCs and benefits the TCs and Turkey on our expense is not compatible with your ideal.

You say you agree with my terms, yet it is still my impression that you have spent years arguing that the desire for enosis was a valid expression of the right to self determination of a Cypriot people and that you are still claiming that even now with you claim that the right applies to 'all people in a territory' and not to a group defined BY some wider commonality ? What is more it is my memory that in the past when I have argued we need to place our common Cypriotness ahead of differences as GC and TC, you yourself were somewhat 'disparaging' of that idea and sought refuge in ascribing all blame to TC for being 'invaders' of Cyprus instead of supporting it ?

Even your friend Bananiot agrees with me that enosis was a legitimate aspiration of the GCs. And I didn't "spent years arguing" about enosis... I am just responding, mainly to you, when you are trying to use those events to unfairly put a disproportionately large blame on us. It is you who seems to be obsessed with enosis, not me. I don't think I ever argued against placing what we have in common above what we have different. What I always argue about is that the differences should be accepted, not oppressed... maybe with time what is common will grow and the differences will diminish... but this can happen only gradually by living together under a system that encourages integration rather than one based on separation and differences.

you are stupid as any human can be. the reason they used self determination was to fool stupid idiots like you so you could follow them like flies to crappy enosis. but they got exosis instead

[Get Real!]

On behalf of true Cypriots some things need to be told...

What Greece was doing to Cyprus (starting intensely from the 1920s and right up to 1974) was a prolonged, systematic, and very thorough CLEANSING of the Cypriot culture, origin, and heritage.

It was a complete and unwavering effort to annihilate all things Cypriot and to replace the very nature of Cypriots with an invented identity which ultimately led to the catastrophic events we know today.

Greece used every dirty trick in the racist book (much of which was borrowed from Nazi Germany’s bible) to achieve their devious goal of ethnic catharsis on Cyprus including the constant control and abuse of education (schools) and religion (Church) to pump out their incessant propaganda.

The result of their propaganda was many schooled generations of Cypriots brainwashed into believing utter absurdities such as:

1. Cyprus was some kind of Greek territory led astray that needed to be reunited back into the Greek fold.

2. Cypriots originated from ancient Greeks therefore Cypriots never existed.

Those who resisted the obligatory “Hellenization” were branded “communist”, “atheist”, and/or “pro colonialist”, and punished severely by the evil McCarthyist movement. Families were cut off from the community and men were tortured and/or murdered for failing to fall in line with Hellenism.

By the late 60s and early 70s the doctrine had spread like wildfire and the now majority brainwashed followers were in a frenzy and one could sense in the air that serious trouble was brewing on the island.

I myself am a victim of this horrible Greek evil when as a child of around 7-8 I was slapped almost senseless by my teacher for failing to draw/paint the Greek flag on a small rectangular piece of paper and straw I was handed, and opted to paint the Cypriot one which I copied/traced from a print on my pencil case.

I knew there and then that this “Hellenism” was nothing but my enemy aiming to either forever modify or destroy me. I would’ve never imagined at the time that my destruction was actually imminent for hardly two years had gone by when the Greek coup broke out leading to our refugeehood… forever banished from our homeland.

[repulsewarrior]

...my cousins and i, at about the same age would have political debates, such as they were, at such a young age; yet we all knew the danger of joining the soccer club that was "Greek".

...years later, my cousin admitted to me that she did not know that Cyprus had a Flag, that she learned from her own experiences because our family for the most part remained, as a teenager in 1974.

...i think we have paid dearly, all of us, for that Flag, the Flag of Cyprus.

[Sotos]

On behalf of true Cypriots some things need to be told...

What Greece was doing to Cyprus (starting intensely from the 1920s and right up to 1974) was a prolonged, systematic, and very thorough CLEANSING of the Cypriot culture, origin, and heritage.

It was a complete and unwavering effort to annihilate all things Cypriot and to replace the very nature of Cypriots with an invented identity which ultimately led to the catastrophic events we know today.

Greece used every dirty trick in the racist book (much of which was borrowed from Nazi Germany’s bible) to achieve their devious goal of ethnic catharsis on Cyprus including the constant control and abuse of education (schools) and religion (Church) to pump out their incessant propaganda.

The result of their propaganda was many schooled generations of Cypriots brainwashed into believing utter absurdities such as:

1. Cyprus was some kind of Greek territory led astray that needed to be reunited back into the Greek fold.

2. Cypriots originated from ancient Greeks therefore Cypriots never existed.

Those who resisted the obligatory “Hellenization” were branded “communist”, “atheist”, and/or “pro colonialist”, and punished severely by the evil McCarthyist movement. Families were cut off from the community and men were tortured and/or murdered for failing to fall in line with Hellenism.

By the late 60s and early 70s the doctrine had spread like wildfire and the now majority brainwashed followers were in a frenzy and one could sense in the air that serious trouble was brewing on the island.

I myself am a victim of this horrible Greek evil when as a child of around 7-8 I was slapped almost senseless by my teacher for failing to draw/paint the Greek flag on a small rectangular piece of paper and straw I was handed, and opted to paint the Cypriot one which I copied/traced from a print on my pencil case.

I knew there and then that this “Hellenism” was nothing but my enemy aiming to either forever modify or destroy me. I would’ve never imagined at the time that my destruction was actually imminent for hardly two years had gone by when the Greek coup broke out leading to our refugeehood… forever banished from our homeland.

Those Greeks must have some magical super powers to make Cypriots believing that they are Greek while they had no control of Cyprus! Those foreigners who ruled Cyprus for centuries didn't manage to turn us all into Turks, Latins, Persians etc... but the Greeks did this in 30 years with a magical remote control with 700km range! One is to wonder why the Greeks didn't use their magical powers to turn the whole world into Greeks! Of course GR is talking total bullshit as always. The Ottomans had massacred 100s of people in 1821 in order to prevent Cypriots from revolting along with the rest of Greeks, and when the British first took over Cyprus in 1878 the demand for the eventual enosis was immediately made to them.

[Sotos]

I myself am a victim of this horrible Greek evil when as a child of around 7-8 I was slapped almost senseless by my teacher for failing to draw/paint the Greek flag on a small rectangular piece of paper and straw I was handed, and opted to paint the Cypriot one which I copied/traced from a print on my pencil case.

So now we know what traumatized GR and his relation with the Greek flag. Poor GR couldn't draw some straight lines so he choose to cheat instead... he got caught and punished and then he made up some story to excuse his failure: He wasn't the kid who couldn't draw and cheated but the one who stood up to the oppression! GR is a case of what I would call "Big ego, small brain" Interesting how some of those who were raised abroad think that they are more Cypriot than those who were born and raised in Cyprus. It would be an interesting topic for a sociological study... or at least a thread in the forum!