Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Your nightmare above seems to start with having many people not satisfied with the economic terms of the property issue.

Of course it starts there. That is the biggest stumbling block there is. Start there and add all the rest of the recipe and you will end up with the stalemate we have today.

Note that even today any Cypriot that wants to pop over the green line and hit someone on the nose they can easily do so tonight. However, the do not.

Yes they can, but can they do it in their hundreds, no. Can they pick on one or maybe ten families living in their street and tear them apart like angry mobs do. I have seen what an angry mob is like when it is in frenzy and it is terrifying. I could give you many other instances but I was rather hoping that you would have dealt with the very real fear that is present in the TC mind. Add that to the fear that we will eventually disappear and only GCs will be left and you can see what I am talking about. Ignore these facts or think I am lying in order to gain something and nothing more will happen. If you know anything about psychology you will know that dismissing it or laughing at it will not work.

[pg]

Your nightmare above seems to start with having many people not satisfied with the economic terms of the property issue.

Of course it starts there. That is the biggest stumbling block there is. Start there and add all the rest of the recipe and you will end up with the stalemate we have today.

Note that even today any Cypriot that wants to pop over the green line and hit someone on the nose they can easily do so tonight. However, the do not.

Yes they can, but can they do it in their hundreds, no. Can they pick on one or maybe ten families living in their street and tear them apart like angry mobs do. I have seen what an angry mob is like when it is in frenzy and it is terrifying. I could give you many other instances but I was rather hoping that you would have dealt with the very real fear that is present in the TC mind. Add that to the fear that we will eventually disappear and only GCs will be left and you can see what I am talking about. Ignore these facts or think I am lying in order to gain something and nothing more will happen. If you know anything about psychology you will know that dismissing it or laughing at it will not work.

Good, let's split the whole problem up and deal with each issue as we go along. Trying to discuss them all the same time - incl history and future - never led anywhere.

For the economics of the property issue. Clearly these economic terms is essential for how safe we see the future of the island. In short, everyone needs to feel safe they will not be worse off after the property issue is settled - at least when it comes to their primary residence. Now, someone will have to pay for that. Unless the TC community has dosh hidden away after 31 years... the main candidates to pay are Turkey, Greece, EU, US. So why would they, we ask?
What are the alternatives? For example, if it is an independent TRNC with full compensation to GC property owners, the costs are going to be even higher - since such a TRNC would never be able to take its place in the international community without fair implementation of ECHR case law.
So, all alternatives apart from the status quo will cost shit loads of money - and unification is probably the cheapest - and most economically viable future for the island.


Fear. I think the best way of dealing with the fear is to break down all sources of worry and deal with them one by one.


With regards to fear I think it can be useful to compare the opening of the green line. Incredibly traumatic. First week most people did not dare to cross over - they first wanted to see if those who did really came back. And that is not joke.

Also, fear and comfort are very related when it comes to 'the solution'. GC who are not personaly involved in the property issue, or in politics, see little value in risking interference in their comfort zone. And it is easy scare them with invading masses from Anatolia.

[faruk]

I have recently posted a number of questions which were kindly answered by a number of Greek Cypriots. The most fundemental questions for TC's are as Follows:

1- There are still supporters of Eoka is the Gov. of South Cyprus can a deal really be made with such people, or is there a need for a new generation of politicians to come to the fore?

I fully understand the need for GCs to separate EOKA A and B in order to distance them selves from the latter. I am also asking that some of them realise that to a TC they both mean ENOSIS. As soon as any one in power mentions anything about being a supporter of any of the two sides to EOKA then the answer is no, even if it is a future politician.

2- Do Greek Cypriots still support Enosis and do they regard EOKA fighters as national heroes?

I have no doubt that many GCs do not support ENOSIS. It was only a few years ago that any GCs I knew hated the mainlanders. If however you are asking me about the political games that are being played then I would say yes. I believe they support it just out of principle if not out of political or financial gain.

3- If Enosis could be acheived peacefully today would you support it?

NO! In a way I think that it has already been achieved in the south through the EU. This is another reason why Turkey CANNOT let go of Cyprus because as soon as the Cyprus problem is over Turkeys EU prospects are over. It also is the same for the TCs, total unification means ENOSIS through Europe. That, to me, is why it is important for TCs to have 50/50 share in government.

4- If Cyprus was reunited is there ever a chance either today or in the future that rival nationalist tendancies would cause a breakdown in law and order?

This is something that I have said all along so yes would be my answer. People are always looking for someone to blame the easy option would be the opposing side. Do we really want the UN or EU forces to be a permanent fixture in our culture. Stick in a majority GC force and all hell will break loose same goes for the other way round. Even a simple 50/50 will be hard to maintain if not impossible that is the only reason for me wanting partition even if we agree on a single government.

you are claming that EOKA A and EOKA B are different but indeed they both had same aim that was to unify the island with Greece and it was understood by the statements of Makarios and the distinguishing part of them was tactichal. and also you are claming that many GC do not support ENOSIS but i am not agree with you also in this case because of the medals which were given to the thousands of old EOKA members last years and EOKA was an terrorist organisation that was established for the aim of ENOSIS. you choose your leaders and that means many of you upholds their doings and they still supports ENOSIS. furthermore the head of the government of south administration chosen by the GC's was a key player of AKRITAS ORGANISATION........

[Crash]

No, gcs dont support enosis.
Yes we consider the eoka A fighters as national heroes.
i will agree on zan on this. for gcs there is a differentiation of eoka A and B. the A got the support of most gcs where the B didnot.
at the same time i can understand that for the tcs eoka A or B has no difference since they both killed tcs and both had enosis as their target.
for me i am starting critisizing the leaderhsip, and the practises of eoka A as well, but i still respect the people who died fighting against the british.

You have every right to question Eoka A, its goals, objectives, means and deeds. I have a question for you though. Do you know how many TCs did Eoka A’ killed, under what circumstances, for what reasons and in which particular incidences?

EOKA leaders only ever ordered the killing of people who were against them, whether greek, turkish or english. EOKA B was a group of rouge Cypriots trying to tag along to the legendry name of EOKA.

[ZHTO EOKA]

im new to this forum.i think that enosis and a new younger generation of eoka are the only solution for cyprus,cyprus has suffured for 31 years and it will have to change soon,i myself am fanatical about the cyprus situation and that is why i have alreadly set up my own version of eoka those of you who think like me are welcome to join.
EOKA are the only solution,the freed us from the english and the children of EOKA will free us from the turks!

[Sotos]

i have alreadly set up my own version of eoka

Where are the HQ? Your bedroom in London?

[kythrea]

There will be court cases going on by the tens of thousands.
There will be thousands of disgruntled people on both sides.
Some localised disturbances will occur between neighbours and rivals.
Some small, some big riots will occur.
Government will obviously have to intervene.
Legislation will have to be made to quell the disturbances.
The government will have to pamper to the majority.
The minorities will feel hard done by and create more disturbances.
Deportations of unruly immigrants will begin and will serve to worry the TCs even more.
There will be miscarriages of justice in who is really an immigrant.
More tension, more arrests.
Villages will start to become either GC or TC again.
TC villages will feel that not enough attention and money is given to them.
Unemployment will be greater in the TC villages and then the full TC nightmare is too much to imagine and we disappear in a puff of smoke.

Even if this sounds silly to some it is a fear as real as my phobia of heights.

Recognition of the TRNC will overcome all this IMO


Zan, it seems to me that your vision of a reunited Cyprus is extremely pessimistic. have you been to the unoccupied area of Cyprus recently ? It is a thriving pluralist democracy where people of many races and religions live in relative harmony.

Your average GC has spent alot of time abroad, working or being educated in other pluralist democracies in Europe, the US, etc. he/she poses no realistic threat to our TC compatriots (the views of a few fanatics do not negate this). As others have pointed out, the opening up of the Green line has not led to any major (or even minor) disturbances, despite the considerable emotional distress experienced by many refugees returning to their homes to find them destroyed or inhabited by colonists.

People will only be disgruntled in a reunited Cyprus if their human rights are not safeguarded and if they have not been satisfactorily compensated for the loss of their properties. "There is no peace without justice".

re your comment 'the government will have to pamper to the majority' [sic] - i'm afraid this is something we have to live with in democratic societies. deomcracy isn't perfect, but we have yet to come up with a better alternative. communism proved to be a bit of a fizzer. (not every issue is decided along ethnic lines btw. you will find that on many issues, TCs will be part of the majority).

re some of your other fears:
'Villages will start to become either GC or TC again.' in a free society, people can live where they choose. I don't have a problem with TCs or GCs living in separate villages if they want to as long as they have acquired their property by legal means.

"Unemployment will be greater in the TC villages" - what do you base this assertion on ? discrimination works both ways - TC business owners can equally discriminate against GC employees if they want to. don't forget the Cypriot government is subject to EU laws too now.

I don't doubt that some of your fears are genuine, but the problem is that when they are not based on any evidence, you leave yourself open to being accused of bad faith. GCs like myself start to think you are looking for excuses for maintaining the current division .

[zan]

kythrea

Zan, it seems to me that your vision of a reunited Cyprus is extremely pessimistic. have you been to the unoccupied area of Cyprus recently ? It is a thriving pluralist democracy where people of many races and religions live in relative harmony.

And they do under different governments all over the world but they are living on a time bomb. Can you not see that any real problems will be used by those who wish each other harm to whip up more hate and riots. Sure it might not happen. I did not say anywhere that my fears are a certainty. You can own a gun without ever shooting it.

Your average GC has spent alot of time abroad, working or being educated in other pluralist democracies in Europe, the US, etc. he/she poses no realistic threat to our TC compatriots (the views of a few fanatics do not negate this). As others have pointed out, the opening up of the Green line has not led to any major (or even minor) disturbances, despite the considerable emotional distress experienced by many refugees returning to their homes to find them destroyed or inhabited by colonists.

I think there have been a few cases and I think the latest with Matsakis is a case in point. He is just the type of person I am talking about that can and do start trouble. He might be a laughing stock at the moment but wait and watch what will happen just on this board if any news of him being mistreated comes out???

People will only be disgruntled in a reunited Cyprus if their human rights are not safeguarded and if they have not been satisfactorily compensated for the loss of their properties. "There is no peace without justice".

Only????
You honestly think that there will be no miscarriages of justice or people will not think they have been wrongly judged against even if they haven't. These are Cypriots we are talking about right????

re your comment 'the government will have to pamper to the majority' [sic] - i'm afraid this is something we have to live with in democratic societies. deomcracy isn't perfect, but we have yet to come up with a better alternative. communism proved to be a bit of a fizzer. (not every issue is decided along ethnic lines btw. you will find that on many issues, TCs will be part of the majority).

I wasn't being the naive person you think I was when you answered that question. Of course the government is going to pamper to the majority and I know what democracy is. Would you like to be the one to stand in front of an angry minority and try to explain that to them as well? I don't think your philosophical theories about communism as opposed to a nearly perfect capitalism is going to go down too well. Have you forgotten about the history of Cyprus?

re some of your other fears:
'Villages will start to become either GC or TC again.' in a free society, people can live where they choose. I don't have a problem with TCs or GCs living in separate villages if they want to as long as they have acquired their property by legal means.

I think that that comment is very ironically subtle don't you?

"Unemployment will be greater in the TC villages" - what do you base this assertion on ? discrimination works both ways - TC business owners can equally discriminate against GC employees if they want to. don't forget the Cypriot government is subject to EU laws too now.

Tell that to the two Chinese employees that had to climb on top of a building and threaten suicide for non-payment of wages.
Any way I was hinting at the problem of people screaming about prejudice when and where they can to fuel hate again. These silly excuses as to how things should be is what you tell children when they are growing up in order not to scare them about how the real world is.

I don't doubt that some of your fears are genuine, but the problem is that when they are not based on any evidence, you leave yourself open to being accused of bad faith. GCs like myself start to think you are looking for excuses for maintaining the current division .

What evidence are you after? Do you want the evidence of the Paris riots? How about the London riots. How about discrimination in almost all the EU countries that you read about every day. How about the double standards of the EU it self. How about countries that do all they can to get into the EU and then do what they want with their veto as backup. When you talk about Cyprus and the Cypriot people being able to use the “perfect system” to protect themselves, don't you think that you leave yourself open for criticism as well, if not more than me?

[troll]

Eoka (A) stood up and fought British arrogance and brutality when concentration camps/floggings/torture and imprisonment were inflicted upon GCs. To get around the fact that torture was then against the law in the UK, the British used Turks to do the torturing in detention camps.In my view, any organisation that answers a call to arms in these circumstances are indeed national heroes.Freedom fighters-not terrorists. The real terrorists were (and arguably still are) the USA/UK alliance.The continued friction between Greek and Turk is just how they want it.

[Simon]

Zhto how many people are in your new version of EOKA?