Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

EDI - The only real patriots in Cyprus.

Come on Alexios.
Who decides what is patriotic? Isn't our country (patrida) the people that make this country?

EDI, a party of 1%, goes against the clearly expressed interests of the great majority of the population and they side with the enemy in the effort to force on us something which is against our human rights and that we clearly rejected. Sorry, I don't see anything patriotic in their actions. This is why in this elections will get half of the nothing they got in last elections.

Just a note to the ones that compare RoC with Turkey. In Turkey parties that get the % that EDI gets, not only they don't get a seat in the parliament, they are totally unknown with no public exposure. Not to mention that if a party (or person) in Turkey dared to support the GC position to the degree that EDI support the Turkish position, that this party would be dissolved and its members sent to jail for treason.
Actually I believe there is a law in Turkey about this.

[Piratis]

are you accusing us of being wrong?
who?
we?
thats not possible
shame on you alexios

First,
we never mistakes.
Second,
when we do they are very small.
Third,
when they are big they are smaller than the mistakes of the others.
and
Fourth
when they are bigger it is not our fault.

... I removed my comment here. You are free to give excuses to the Turkish occupation and violation of human rights.

[pg]

Are there no floating voters at all?

What do you think would happen if all the other parties disappeared over night and only the government and EDI were left?

That is a bit of a hypothetical question, don't you think...

...in general, a GC would rather start his own party than move to another existing one.

[zan]

Are there no floating voters at all?

What do you think would happen if all the other parties disappeared over night and only the government and EDI were left?

That is a bit of a hypothetical question, don't you think...

...in general, a GC would rather start his own party than move to another existing one.

I was looking for a hypothetical answer?

[serkan]

sori Piratis but the link you gave me seems to not be working, i would like to correct myself in November 1963 Makarios proposed 13 constitutional changes which he referred to as 'common sense measures' the result of which would have been the marginalisation of Turkish Cypriots in politics and the perging of TC's from government and the civil service. By December both of these outcomes had been acheived through violance. Dr. Fazil Kucuks veto was no longer recognised or respected.

[quote]"TRNC" What is this? Are you talking about the illegal entity that was created in north Cyprus by ethnically cleansing the Greek Cypriot majority from this area?
[/quote]

Greeks were not ethnically cleansed from the are Piratis, there were vast movements of populations from the north to south and vice versa. and although the whole world (apart from Turkey) regards the RoC as the legitimate government of all Cyprus the question you should be asking yourself as a Cypriot is why don't the TC's recognise this. at the end of the day its only the opinions of the GC's and the TC's that count because it is only us that reside in Cyprus not the whole world. I am not asking you to recognise or accept the TRNC but please do not try to mock me or this state when i mention it i do not object to you refering to South Cyprus as RoC because i respect your opinions even though i do not agree with them, and hope that you atleast treat me with the same respect that i treat you.

In a previous post i merely outlined why TC's do not recognise the RoC. I was not trying to suggest that only TC are victims in Cyprus but why they object to the RoC. Someone mentioned that Eoka B tried to assasinate Makarios, as if this would prove that Eoka was not an instrument of the government in the post 1963 period. I think we are all mature enough to see that this is not the case. [/quote]

[Piratis]

AKEL - So called Communist Party with Capitalist connections.Recently a confused Party appearing to be in 2 or 3 !!minds regarding the Cyprus problem

Before other parties were accusing AKEL of now allowing different opinions to be heard. Now they are accusing it for "2-3 minds" and that the "correct" way is the way of Emperor Anastasiades of DISY who bans whoever disagrees with him and does whatever he feels like even if it goes against what the majority of DISY supporters want.

DISY - Right wing party that strives hard to get rid of its nationalist image and succeeding to some extend at the expense of losing old nationalist support

I am sure they are praying day and night to lose the nationalist support so their party will get 5% in next elections

[Piratis]

sori Piratis but the link you gave me seems to not be working

Sorry about that. The UN website is not very practical. The contents of the resolution are pasted in that post though.

i would like to correct myself in November 1963 Makarios proposed 13 constitutional changes which he referred to as 'common sense measures' the result of which would have been the marginalisation of Turkish Cypriots in politics and the perging of TC's from government and the civil service.

Is this something you learned to say? If you knew what the 13 points were you would see that they would simply reduce the super powers of TCs without any kind of marginalisation. For example the 18% of TCs were given 30% of governmental positions according to the 1960 agreements. The ones who were marginalized in this way were the Greek Cypriots. What is a 'common sense measure' in this case is for the 18% of TCs to have the 18% of positions, not the 30%. I don't know what kind of 'common sense' you have to disagree with this. Also remember that these were just proposals. The TCs could just negotiate and change the parts of those proposals that were indeed unfair (if such thing existed).

By December both of these outcomes had been acheived through violance. Dr. Fazil Kucuks veto was no longer recognised or respected.

The violence started by both communities. Non of the communities cared to discuss anything. GCs are guilty for that, but TCs are guilty also since they withdrew from the government themselves and they were following the directions of Turkey for partition. Don't blame the intercommunal violence only only GCs!

Greeks were not ethnically cleansed from the are Piratis, there were vast movements of populations from the north to south and vice versa.

Is this another part of your 'common sense'? That people just moved out of the places they inhabited for 1000s of years leaving behind all their belongings without being forced? What happened it was a clear example of ethnic cleansing. Trying to excuse that is lame.

but please do not try to mock me or this state when i mention it i do not object to you refering to South Cyprus as RoC because i respect your opinions even though i do not agree with them, and hope that you atleast treat me with the same respect that i treat you.

Sorry, I have absolutely no respect for racists that support the ethnic cleansing and the violations of human rights. Republic of Cyprus is an internationally recognized state. "TRNC" is a pseudo state created based on ethnic cleansing and crimes. The two can not be compared. This is why one is a real state and the other an illegal invalid pseudo state.

Someone mentioned that Eoka B tried to assasinate Makarios, as if this would prove that Eoka was not an instrument of the government in the post 1963 period. I think we are all mature enough to see that this is not the case.

So EOKA-B was an instrument of Makarios according to you? Then what you mean is that Makarios tried to suicide by instructing EOKA-B to kill him??
It is very well known that Makarios and EOKA-B had nothing to do with each other and they were enemies. This is why we had the "Makariakous" who were supporters of Makarios, and "Grivikous" who were supporters of Grivas and EOKA-B. What I tell you are simply facts. The ones who taught you what you know were simply trying to present GCs and RoC as bad as possible. Better make some independent research before you come to conclusions.

[serkan]

[u][quote]Better make some independent research before you come to conclusions.[/quote][/u]

Piratis you are pathetic, i have tried discussing this issue with you but you are intent on answering every question with Greek nationalist rhetoric which is at its best offensive to TC's and at it's worst purely racist. I hope that the following statements answer the questions of your post.

TC's were given a disproportionate amount of power in the 1960 constitution but this did not entitle them to 'super powers' as you put it, this was merely to safgaured the Turkish minority. The needs for such safegaurds became apparent between 1963 -74. Do you really beleive that Makarios signed the 1960 agreement with intent on respecting the 70 - 30 ratio, had he not been happy with the 1960 agreement he should have tried to ammend this then, not three years later. Makarios planned the breakdown of political order in 1963 and had his militia (Eoka A) on standby.

[quote]The violence was started by both communities[/quote]
This is certainly not the case violant struggles and intercommunal fighting dosn't just sporadically arise their must be an agitator. I think that anyone with any common sense knows that Eoka A was the agitator in the Cyprus problem. This does not by any means excuse any offences committed by Turkish Cypriot fighters (Volkan or TMT), but lets be realistic it was the Greeks who innitiated the violant struggle in Cyprus in support of enosis.

Piratis do you think that the violant intercommunal struggle was the only reason for the retraction of TC politicians from gov. affairs after 1963 - in December of that year President Makarios declared that the treaty of gaurantee (a piller of the 1960 agreements) was no longer valid in light of events. another political manouvre by makarios who was a great political tactican. Too bad he was born Makarios and not Mehmed we could have used him.

And on the nature of the relationship between Makarios and Eoka, i am astounded by the selective memory of Greek Cypriots. I was merely stating that greivances between Makarios and Eoka B didn't excuse the fact that Makarios was the de facto leader of Eoka A, a terrorist organization. His handsd are soaked with the blood of thousands of TC's and GC's alike - his actions cemented the animosity of generations of Cypriots.

Sadly the simplest example of this is our conversation, you feel threatened by a TC who is knowledgable enough and eloquent enough to fight you with his words, therfore you try to rouse me with petty insults and try to brand me a racist. Piratis the TC are by no means innocent but our current problems are the result of GC aspirations for a union with Greece. Until such notions are expelled from GC politics (as has been acheived in TC politics in respect to TAKSIM) and the them and us mentality is extuinguished any type of union will have no effect, and if it is forced on Cypriots from outside forces i only fear what our children will be saying to each other in years to come. Get real Piratis.

[Piratis]

Piratis you are pathetic, i have tried discussing this issue with you but you are intent on answering every question with Greek nationalist rhetoric which is at its best offensive to TC's and at it's worst purely racist. I hope that the following statements answer the questions of your post.

Can you tell me what exactly of what I said was racist?

I called you racist for a very clear reason: You demand the separation of people based on their race even when this would mean the human rights violations of 1000s of people. Instead of swearing, why don't you answer with arguments to my argument?

TC's were given a disproportionate amount of power in the 1960 constitution but this did not entitle them to 'super powers' as you put it, this was merely to safgaured the Turkish minority.

So giving 30% of governmental jobs to an 18% minority is "merely to safgaured the Turkish minority"? How is this injust treatment of GCs a safeguard for TCs? How come and no other minority in the whole world has this "safeguard"? Not only this is not a safeguard, but it was obvious that GCs would have reacted to it and propose that it has to be changed for something more fair.

had he not been happy with the 1960 agreement he should have tried to ammend this then, not three years later.

This should have been done if Makarios was given the option. However neither Makarios, nor the Cypriot people were given the option to choose their own constitution in a democratic way. It was merely given to us in a "take it or leave it" way. (and "leave it" in this case would mean to remain slaves of the British)

I think that anyone with any common sense knows that Eoka A was the agitator in the Cyprus problem. This does not by any means excuse any offences committed by Turkish Cypriot fighters (Volkan or TMT), but lets be realistic it was the Greeks who innitiated the violant struggle in Cyprus in support of enosis.

I will quote you what the British say about this:

"The Turkish community was whipped into a frenzy by broadcasts from Turkey calling for the partition of Cyprus. Violence between the turks and Cypriots broke out in early June and climaxed when eight Greeks were massacred in a cornfield near the Turkish village of Geunyeli."
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/war.html

EOKA had union as its aim and TMT and the TC nationalists had partition as their aim. Both sides had about the same number of casualties during the intercommunal conflict. So don't try to blame that conflict on GCs only.

Piratis do you think that the violant intercommunal struggle was the only reason for the retraction of TC politicians from gov. affairs after 1963

No. Another reason were the directions of Turkey in preparation for partition.

And on the nature of the relationship between Makarios and Eoka, i am astounded by the selective memory of Greek Cypriots. I was merely stating that greivances between Makarios and Eoka B didn't excuse the fact that Makarios was the de facto leader of Eoka A, a terrorist organization. His handsd are soaked with the blood of thousands of TC's and GC's alike - his actions cemented the animosity of generations of Cypriots.

First of all the leader of EOKA-A was Grivas, not Makarios. Secondly, EOKA was an organization that was formed to end the colonial rule of Britain in Cyprus. You can call that "terrorism", but then you should call all people fighting to end colonialism as terrorists, e.g. the American Patriots that fought against the British and the Loyalists to gain America its independence.

Sadly the simplest example of this is our conversation, you feel threatened by a TC who is knowledgable enough and eloquent enough to fight you with his words, therfore you try to rouse me with petty insults and try to brand me a racist.

I do not feel threatened by you. Also you are not knowledgeable enough since you don't even know the basic facts. I clearly explained to you why I consider you racist, by you avoided answering with an argument. Instead you started to swear and make unfounded accusations against me.

Piratis the TC are by no means innocent but our current problems are the result of GC aspirations for a union with Greece.

And why is that? Countries had joined the European union when referenda in these countries were won by majorities of way less than 82%. Why should the aspirations of GCs to end the colonialism and unite with Greece be the problem, and not the TC aspirations for partition, that would require the ethnic cleansing of a big part of the population?

Until such notions are expelled from GC politics (as has been acheived in TC politics in respect to TAKSIM).

Enosis today exists in the minds of a tiny minority of GCs. However taksim (partition) is the official policy of Turkey and TCs. Are you the ones that insist today that "TRNC" exists? Have you heard any GC politician demanding enosis? Get real.

the them and us mentality is extuinguished any type of union will have no effect, and if it is forced on Cypriots from outside forces i only fear what our children will be saying to each other in years to come. Get real Piratis

What I always propose is one united Cyprus were all people are equal citizens without any kind of discrimination based on their race,sex, language, religion etc.
The "us VS them" mentality is something that you support by insisting on the racist separtion of Cypriots and the human rights violations of people simply because they belong to a certain race. This is how you want to extinguish the "them and us" mentality??

For me today the "us" are the people that support legality and human rights. In this "us" I include all Turkish Cypriots (one of which in this forum) that accept these universal principles. "Them" are the ones who are using exuses to violate the human rights of either of the two communities. In this "them" I include the TCs that inisist on any form of racist partition that will require human rights violations and the GCs that support that TCs have no place in Cyprus (thankfully they are a minority).
I hope that one day we will all me just "us" and everybody will respect the human and democratic rights of everybody else. Basically to have a normal country just like all the other succesful democracies in the world.

[serkan]

[quote]
I called you racist for a very clear reason: You demand the separation of people based on their race even when this would mean the human rights violations of 1000s of people. Instead of swearing, why don't you answer with arguments to my argument?
[/quote]

OK then Piratis heres an argument for you, according to what your saying two community's who have lived together for hundreds of years share a common sense of community and should not be divided up according to race - so according to your rational Modern Turkey and Greece should be re-united, they shared a common exhistence for 400 years longer in fact then the cypriots shared history.

Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Turks lost their homes, land, jobs etc between 1923 - 1963 with huge population transfers between both countries, there were vast Turkish communities in Crete, Salonica and Thrace. Their were equally large comunities of Greeks in Istanbul, Izmir and along the Aegean Coast.

This was not an ideal scenario though because both contries were suspicious of each other and their was a high degree of tension between both neighbours (which was only increased by the Cyprus issue), but over a couple of generations the relationship has been mended and both countries enjoy ammicable relations with one another - this was acheived at the cost of hundreds of thousands of peoples homes but done in the greater good of humanity to ensure that two very differant communities can live and develop separately but today they embrace each other as neighbours i see this as the future for Cyprus whether in a Federal, Confederal or two Republics solution partition is the only way. Let the example of Turkey and Greece be an example for Cyprus.

And Piratis if you think that this makes me racist then you are condeming the whole world whose modern political doctrine is based on that of the nation state as racist. I simply think that I am realistic