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BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:16 pm

Paphitis:
My my, I see many of you have no clue. First get to know the definitions.

You are still the only one in step then?
Money is currency. A Bank is unable to create money or currency. It can only make an IOU. The money is a fixed amount of hard currency or cash flow available to a Bank to support all the IOUs. If the cash demand by depositors exceeds the money supply of the Banks liquidity and cash flow, then there are big problems
.
Rubish! Everything in the banks accounts is a currency! Money and currency have the same qualities but money has one that currency does not have ..... it is a store of value over time.(Check the dictionary) Hence the only money the banks have is the real money in their clients safety deposit boxes .... in the form of Kruger Rhands, Gold Sovereigns etc.
A Bank creates IOUs through lending. There are many types of lending products. You have high interest non-secured lending, low interest secured lending supported by collateral, equity borrowing, marginal lending through a share portfolio, business and commercial lending as well as short term overdraft borrowing. All types of loans are secured against collateral except non-secured loans which Banks don't particularly like.

Rubbish! The banks issue IOUs only when they borrow your deposits to use as reserves. They do not create bank IOU’s through creating debt (Lending).
Now, when a loan is made, an IOU is credited to someone's account.

Correct but, it is an IOU issued by the borrower paid into to another account not the banks IOU. The bank creates a debt ...... in fact what they do in reality is to grant you a custom OVERDRAUGHT! When they give you an overdraught they don’t lend you anything they allow you to create a debt for yourself, i.e. to spend more than you have in your account. A ‘loan’ is exactly the same concept.
This will appear on a Bank's balance sheet as an asset if the loan is performing. That's because the Bank will make a profit from the interest. Now not all the interest charged is profit. The profit is the total interest - inflation - other costs - base rate. The total profit to the Bank is around 1 to 2% each year. The Banks make money on volume. The margin is actually pretty thin. Now we see the loan as an asset to the Bank. Yes but only as long as the loan exists. The asset has declining value as the borrower is paying it off. Eventually it will disappear. The Bank is left with the profit from the interest over the life of the loan.

The interest is profit earned ..... i.e. income! Just like I could claim my pension isn’t really all pension, as I have to spend some of it to live. The interest is the only profit the bank makes on a loan ..... the capital sum they created as new money, is recovered from the economy and written off the banks books i.e. The sum recovered is destroyed.
This profit on the Bank's bottom line then is entered as an asset on its balance sheet and is returned to share holders through dividend payments.

The profit is part of the banks profit and loss account, not it’s trading account and is deducted as incurred when a loan is repaid. First they deducted the accrued compound interest charged on a daily basis, from the monthly repayment. What remains is written off the loan debt.
Now, as I said, an IOU is not creating money. And the reality is that whilst a loan is a Banking asset whilst it is performing, in actual fact it is a liability to start off with. That is because it is an IOU in someone's account and this IOU is at call in full and even within a 24 hour period.

The ONLY IOU in a bank loan is that the borrower has through his loan contract with the bank. When the borrower spends his credit, he has no other IOU once the IOU he has issued is entered into another account. When it is cleared he has honoured that IOU. He has paid up for whatever he spent the money on.

How can a bank issue an IOU for something it has created. An IOU to whom and for what! An IOU is a liability to repay, the banks have no one to repay the money to ..... THEY CREATED IT FROM NOTHING ..... there IS no bank liability!
Now a Bank would prefer that the IOU maintains its electronic form, but it can also be withdrawn from the Bank's cash supply. A Bank can do it because they are presuming that only 3% of these IOUs will be withdrawn at any given day. Usually, it is way under this.

You’re getting closer! The 3% constitutes ALL the cash in circulation whether it is in the banks cash drawer, in the safe, in the ATM or in your wallet.
Now, a Bank is predominately a secure way for people to deposit money. When a deposit is made, the Bank takes the money and credits your account with an IOU. The money goes towards the Bank's money supply or cash flow. The same money can be given out to another customer who makes a withdrawal from their deposit account. These deposits are liabilities to the Bank because they incur a loss to the Bank through interest payments to the depositor calculated daily.

Where on earth are you getting all this rubbish from? The bank takes the deposits and lodges them as their reserves, they are paid interest on these whilst they are in the Central Bank or are loaned WITHIN the reserves held by the CB of other banks. It is where LIBOR comes from (London Interbank Offer Rate) In it’s place they lodge an IOU in your accounts balance column. The bank does not loan clients deposits, they are reserves and by law cannot be loaned out to borrowers. They are liabilities because they do not belong to the banks, they have a liability to repay these deposits to their clients.

In Cyprus the banks reneged on their IOU just to reduce their liabilities ...... but people were totally unaware of the way the banks worked. The banks defaulted and the people got screwed!!!
A Bank of course is not alone in being able to create IOUs. Corporations can do it as well. Corporations like Apple, Microsoft, Shell, BP, Tesla, Mercedes, QANTAS, and every other big corporation or multi national can create an IOU and they too appear on its balance sheet as an Account Receivable which is an asset, or an account payable which is a liability. That is not all. Every micro business, such as contractors, trades, small shop merchants can also create IOUs in the same way as a multi national can. A Bank can even offer overdraft lending to a multi national or micro business based on its accounts payable and accounts receivable. These are unsecured short term loans usually only lasting about 30 days. Overdrafts are used by businesses experiencing cash flow issues due to its creditor accounts
.
You are introducing something that is totally unrelated to the banking subject!
Now, a Bank can't sustain itself if it only takes deposits and can't make IOUs in the form of lending. What kind of Bank would just take your money as a deposit, and mostly through electronic means, pay interest on it and not make money from other functions such as lending or by using your money to buy assets?

The bank needs deposits only as reserves, it does not lend them out. Banks do not issue IOU’s related to debt ..... an IOU is only required when there is a liability to repay ..... the banks has no such liability! Transactions are 99% electronic. Banks do not use ‘your’ money to buy assets, they are not permitted to by law .... the banks create what they need to buy bonds or asset backed securities just like they do for every other loan.
However, they are regulated to take your money. These deposits are also under a Capital Guarantee arrangement up to a certain amount reducing the risk to the depositor to pretty much zero in most cases.

Are you referring to the €100k deposit guarantee?
I repeat, IOUs are NOT money or currency creation. Money supply is fixed or the physical availability of hard cash in the form of currency. The Central Bank however can create money from thin air and it does this to Capitalize the Banks and Government whenever the Government pays Billions of Trillions worth of wages and benefits to public servants and pensioners.

The only IOU’s are those in your account ...... the bank owes YOU the amount stated in your ‘balance’ column. That figure is convertible to currency and is a means of exchange by whatever means, electronic or a wheel barrow full of cash.

Central banks print notes on behalf of the government, they have no mandate to produce currency by electronic means. In the current system government is funded by tax returns. Income tax is predominantly used to repay the loans the government incurs when it sells bonds (IOU’s) through the Central Bank to commercial banks, when tax returns are insufficient to cover the wage bill etc.
It also regulates interest rates to manipulate money supply and maintain adequate supply levels.

Interest rates are at near zero ......... they are intended to stimulate spending and thus the economy. The method of control has failed miserably!
In addition, every utility bill from you electricity account, water bill, gas bill, telecommunications and Internet bills issued by the utilities servicing your household are creating an IOU whenever they send you a bill into your letter box. Now, you can pay these Bills with cash, or send then electronic money through your Bank via an electronic transfer. Once again, it's an IOU to the utility company.

You really are screwed up!!!!!! A utility bill is NOT an IOU, they don’t owe YOU anything it is them sending you a UOMe ..... in accordance with your contract with them ....... just like the borrowers contract with the bank. The utility company owns your IOU as implicit in the T&C’s of your contract with them. Them sending you a bill is a demand for payment .... where does the IOU come into it, except the agreement you have with them to pay your bills as demanded?

It really can't get simpler than that!


No it couldn’t, it’s just a pity it is mainly incorrect and a completely misleading opinion. You are sooooo way off the mark!
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:17 pm

Paphitis wrote:
A Bank creates IOUs through lending.
............
When a loan is made, an IOU is credited to someone's account.
............
Now, as I said, an IOU is not creating money.


That's a fallacy. Of course it creates new money, and that's the difference between IOUs from loans(although I disagree they are actually IOUs) backed up by a collateral and other types of IOUs.
Imagine for a day all loans get paid off. Would you still insist the money in the market be it in electronic or cash form would still be the same???
Last edited by Pyrpolizer on Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby erolz66 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:26 pm

Paphitis wrote:Money is currency. A Bank is unable to create money or currency. It can only make an IOU. The money is a fixed amount of hard currency or cash flow available to a Bank to support all the IOUs. If the cash demand by depositors exceeds the money supply of the Banks liquidity and cash flow, then there are big problems.


I disagree. Cash (notes and coins) are ONE form of money. They are NOT the ONLY form of money and indeed they are the 'minority' form of money in the modern world. The only sensible way to define 'money' is to ask the question 'what can I buy with it'. The acid test of the 'what can I buy with it' question is 'can I pay my taxes with it'. If you can pay your taxes with it, then it IS money.

Cash is one form of money. Only the Central Bank can create cash.
Central Bank reserves are another form of money - but a form that only Banks and Governments can use.
Commercial bank money - this is the majority form of money and the one that exits merely as ledger entries in commercial banks systems.

They are all forms of money. It makes no sense to say that only cash is money

Paphitis wrote:A Bank creates IOUs through lending. There are many types of lending products. You have high interest non-secured lending, low interest secured lending supported by collateral, equity borrowing, marginal lending through a share portfolio, business and commercial lending as well as short term overdraft borrowing. All types of loans are secured against collateral except non-secured loans which Banks don't particularly like.


The Commercial banks create money through lending. The credit they make in my account when I borrow from them (or deposit money with them) CAN be used to buy anything and can be used to pay my taxes - and thus by any sensible definition of the word, IS money.

Paphitis wrote:Now, when a loan is made, an IOU is credited to someone's account. This will appear on a Bank's balance sheet as an asset if the loan is performing. That's because the Bank will make a profit from the interest. Now not all the interest charged is profit. The profit is the total interest - inflation - other costs - base rate. The total profit to the Bank is around 1 to 2% each year. The Banks make money on volume. The margin is actually pretty thin. Now we see the loan as an asset to the Bank. Yes but only as long as the loan exists. The asset has declining value as the borrower is paying it off. Eventually it will disappear. The Bank is left with the profit from the interest over the life of the loan. This profit on the Bank's bottom line then is entered as an asset on its balance sheet and is returned to share holders through dividend payments.


You really need to understand the difference between balance sheet and profit and loss account. They are not the same thing.

When the bank loans me £1000 pounds by making a entry in its ledgers, saying it owes me £1000, the LOAN (my commitment to pay it back with interest) is an asset owned by the bank. It has all the forms of an asset - it produces income, it has a capital value and it can be sold for a given price to someone else. The LOAN is recorded as an asset on the balance sheet because it IS an asset. The credit entry the bank makes in my account on granting me the loan is a liability for the bank of £1000 and is recorded on their balance sheet as a liability, because it IS a liability - it is something they owe to me. Just in the same way as when I deposit £1000 cash in my account and they increase the ledger entry for my account by £1000 this ledger entry becomes a liability for the bank (and the physical cash, which the bank now owns) becomes an asset. This is how double entry book keeping works.

Paphitis wrote:Now, as I said, an IOU is not creating money.


You said it but it makes no sense at all. If I can use the bank created IOU to buy ANYTHING I want, or change it into cash at will with total liquidity, or pay my taxes with it, then it is in fact MONEY b y any sensible definition of the word money.

Paphitis wrote: These deposits are liabilities to the Bank because they incur a loss to the Bank through interest payments to the depositor calculated daily.


No the ledger entries the bank makes that match the deposits are liabilities because they are liabilities - all of it. They are something owed by the bank to someone else. The cash that made the deposit becomes the property of the bank at the point it is deposited. The act of depositing cash therefore creates both an asset AND a liability for the bank at the point it is deposited. The asset is the cash itself and the liability is the amount they enter in their ledger as owing to me. This has NOTHING to do with the bank paying interest on amounts deposited at all.

Paphitis wrote:A Bank of course is not alone in being able to create IOUs. Corporations can do it as well. Corporations like Apple, Microsoft, Shell, BP, Tesla, Mercedes, QANTAS, and every other big corporation or multi national can create an IOU and they too appear on its balance sheet as an Account Receivable which is an asset, or an account payable which is a liability. That is not all. Every micro business, such as contractors, trades, small shop merchants can also create IOUs in the same way as a multi national can. A Bank can even offer overdraft lending to a multi national or micro business based on its accounts payable and accounts receivable. These are unsecured short term loans usually only lasting about 30 days. Overdrafts are used by businesses experiencing cash flow issues due to its creditor accounts.


This is just nonsense Paphitis and comes about from your distorted starting point that only cash (notes and coins) is money. Anyone can issue an IOU. However such IOU's can NOT be used to buy anything with, can not be converted into cash with total liquidity and can not be used to pay your taxes with - so to call them money would be nonsense, they are not. However the IOU's commercial banks create can be used to buy anything, can be instantly converted into cash with total liquidity and can be used to pay your taxes - thsu they are in ev ery practical and functional sense MONEY.

This is why your equating what commercial banks (and ONLY commercial banks) can do with what other business or individuals can do is nonsense. Only the commercial banks can create (commercial bank) MONEY - all the others can only create IOU's which are not MONEY.

Paphitis wrote:Now, a Bank can't sustain itself if it only takes deposits and can't make IOUs in the form of lending. What kind of Bank would just take your money as a deposit, and mostly through electronic means, pay interest on it and not make money from other functions such as lending or by using your money to buy assets? None!!!!!! They will tell you to put it in your mattress and to piss off! They are not a charity.


Wrong. This is one form of banking - essentially this is Retail / Commercial Banking. Other forms of banking exist like Wholesale and investment banking.

Paphitis wrote:I repeat, IOUs are NOT money or currency creation.


You can repeat it as often as you like but it does not mean it is true. Commercial Bank 'IOU's' in the form of ledger entries in that banks systems ARE to all intense and purposes MONEY. They CAN be used to buy anything, they CAN b e turned into cash with instant and total liquidity and they CAN be used to pay your taxes. Thus they ARE money. Yes they are a different FORM or money than notes and coins but they serve exatcly the same function and purpose as notes and coins and are changeable for notes and coins with total liquidity. IOU's made by Apple, or you or my mother are NOT money , because they can NOT be used to buy anything, they can NOT be instantly changed into notes and coins with total liquidity and they can NOT be used to pay my taxes with.

Is this REALLY so hard to understand Paphitis ?

Paphitis wrote:Money supply is fixed or the physical availability of hard cash in the form of currency. The Central Bank however can create money from thin air and it does this to Capitalize the Banks and Government whenever the Government pays Billions of Trillions worth of wages and benefits to public servants and pensioners. It also regulates interest rates to manipulate money supply and maintain adequate supply levels.


Again wrong conclusions from the wrong starting point that only Notes and Coins are money. If what you are saying is true then the Government could ONLY pay the trillions and billions in wages and benefits to public servants and pensioners with NOTES and COINS - lol.

Paphitis wrote:In addition, every utility bill from you electricity account, water bill, gas bill, telecommunications and Internet bills issued by the utilities setvicing your household are creating an IOU whenever they send you a bill into your letter box. Now, you can pay these Bills with cash, or send then electronic money through your Bank via an electronic transfer. Once again, it's an IOU to the utility company.


You CAN pay your utility bills (just like your taxes) with the 'IOU'S' created by Commercial banks as ledger entries in their systems - that is why THOSE 'IOU's' ARE MONEY. You can NOT pay your utility bills (or your taxes) with IOU's created by entities that are not commercial banks, be that entity me, my mother, a small business or a massive business like Apple or Google - thus IOU's from these entities are NOT Money.

It really can't get simpler than that!
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby erolz66 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:59 pm

Robin Hood wrote: Rubbish! The banks issue IOUs only when they borrow your deposits to use as reserves.


When you deposit £1000 cash with a Bank, the Bank becomes in every sense and legally the owner of that cash (money). They can keep it as cash to meet their cash requirements or they can buy Central reserve money with it, or they can use it to buy paper clips or coffee. It is their money at the point it is deposited, in every sense. The cash itself is also an asset on their balance sheet, and the ledger entry they make in your account with them saying you have £1000 credit is a liability on their balance sheet. Banks do not 'borrow' your cash deposits - they own that cash from the point you deposit it.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:37 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Robin Hood wrote: Rubbish! The banks issue IOUs only when they borrow your deposits to use as reserves.


When you deposit £1000 cash with a Bank, the Bank becomes in every sense and legally the owner of that cash (money). They can keep it as cash to meet their cash requirements or they can buy Central reserve money with it, or they can use it to buy paper clips or coffee. It is their money at the point it is deposited, in every sense. The cash itself is also an asset on their balance sheet, and the ledger entry they make in your account with them saying you have £1000 credit is a liability on their balance sheet. Banks do not 'borrow' your cash deposits - they own that cash from the point you deposit it.


Yes, they own it but they have an obligation, a liability, to return it to you on demand. I see that as a loan, an IOU from the bank for which they have a liability to repay. But I don't think they can use client deposits to buy paper clips and toilet rolls, because it is a part of their (client) trading account. These expenses for running the operation such as salaries, rent, rates, heating, lighting etc, are all taken from the other account ....... the Profit and Loss account ..... which is funded from their gross profit from the interest and other bank charges.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:43 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:What I am trying to figure out is how in the abstract world of Largely electronic IOU! Though some years back they all existed on paper in the ledgers of banks, etc, the process of wealth creation fits in, that is the supply of goods and services, and the relationship of the total value of those as expresed in monetary terms to the value of the Iou.


As I see it: whereas the banks used to be a service to wealth creation, they have morphed into an ‘industry’ in their own right that creates nothing in the way of true wealth but they have a monopoly on the right to create the single commodity we all need to create wealth. Money! And they do it all with electronics a zillion times faster than it was just 50 years ago. The banks and associated financial services, like Investment banks, dominate the UK economy and provide thousands of well paid jobs (in the South of England) but they don’t produce anything of value! The human race seems to have lost its way! :(

This is surely why the gap between the rich and everyone else has widened. It is why we have The Super Rich! We have allowed industries that create jobs that feed the economy, to wither and die, whilst the owners move production to countries that have an abundance of cheap labour and thus boost the bottom line. You end up with an impoverished people that are a burden on State resources, at least in the civilised World where we help those that do not have the means to help themselves. Whilst we have to buy cheap crap from abroad that we could so easily manufacture ourselves.

Most of the money created by the banks has now been diverted into assets such a houses, bonds, shares, securities etc. none of which create real wealth, they just make a few people richer. Greece has been carved up and most of their assets have been sold off to foreigners. The last pile of money they got from the IMF went straight back to the same banks that lent them the last lot. The Greek people got absolutely nothing out of it but even more debt. Only this week the Port of Piraeus has been sold off to the Chinese ..... they are selling off the household silver..... just like Thatcher did in the UK.

My belief is that we need to look at the removing the right to create money from the private banks and put it firmly back in the hands of government. But there are those that disagree and think the present system is just fine as it is.

It’s a strange world we now live in ..... init? :roll: :wink:
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby erolz66 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:05 pm

Robin Hood wrote: But I don't think they can use client deposits to buy paper clips and toilet rolls, because it is a part of their (client) trading account. These expenses for running the operation such as salaries, rent, rates, heating, lighting etc, are all taken from the other account ....... the Profit and Loss account ..... which is funded from their gross profit from the interest and other bank charges.


As I understand it there is no difference in the money the bank has from you depositing cash with it, than that which is has made as profit (the difference in what it has cost the bank to operate vs what it has earnt from fees and interest and the like) as far as what it can do with that money. It is all money owned by the bank and can be used equally for anything by them. Nothing I deposit with the bank is 'reserved' or 'allocated' to me specifically. All there is for me once I have deposited it, is an entry in the banks systems that say I have x amount of credit with them. For the bank it is money that they now own.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby erolz66 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:54 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:What I am trying to figure out is how in the abstract world of Largely electronic IOU! Though some years back they all existed on paper in the ledgers of banks, etc, the process of wealth creation fits in, that is the supply of goods and services, and the relationship of the total value of those as expresed in monetary terms to the value of the Iou.


All as I understand it.

Money has always been abstract, by definition as far as I can see. As I understand it 'Banking' - as a centralised record keeping system of tracking 'wealth' or 'value' pre dates money, in the form of 'cash'. Back in x thousand years BC, there is a village that produces primarily wheat. Each harvest the wheat is collected and stored in a central village silo. How much of that wheat is owned by the different people in the village is then recorded centrally - on stone tablets or with 'tally sticks' or some other means. It would seem that the evolution of written language itself was a function of this need to record and keep track of who owned what amount of a given commodity in a central storage facility. So after harvest it is recorded that I own 50 kilos of wheat. I take 10 kilos of it to met my needs in bread and the like until the next harvest. I also want to get some fish from the fisherman, so I take out another 2 kilos (and its recorded I now have 38kilos left in the central store) carry that down to the fisherman, hand it over to him and he in turn hands over to me 1 kilo of fish. He then takes the 2 kilos of wheat and places it back in the central store I took it from, because he does not need to use it presently. Or we both go to the central store and tell them to record I have 2 kilos less of wheat and he has 2 more and he hands over the kilo of fish to me. This all happens without any physical movement of the wheat - there is just a ledger entry reducing my amount of the wheat by 2 kilos and increasing his by 2 kilos. This is a early primitive form of 'Banking' - the centralised recording of ownership of 'wealth' (in the form of grain) and the ability to transfer that 'wealth/grain' from one person to another just by ledger entries.

Then some bright village spark at the Central Grain Bank comes up with the idea of issuing people with physical tokens that represent the grain they have in the Central Grain Bank of varying amounts. Tokens that can be easily carried around and then passed from one person to another, to allow them to transfer their wealth (grain) to another party without having to have both parties come to the Central Grain Bank. These tokens are then in effect 'Cash', operating on the 'Grain Standard'. Every token issued matches 1:1 a given amount of grain. All tokens can be cashed in for the respective value in grain at once and there will be enough grain to do so.

Then some even brighter spark at the Central Grain Bank realises that actually it just never happens that everyone seeks to withdraw their Grain (or cash in their token that represents it) at the same time. That actually the amount of 'claimed' Grain is always a fraction of the total Grain. So this bright spark thinks - so why not issue more tokens that represent the wealth of Grain than actual Grain there is. As long as not everyone seeks to claim the Grain represented by these tokens all at the same time, everything will be fine. This then becomes fractional Banking based on a grain standard.

The function of 'central recording of wealth' is a valid, useful and needed function of 'banking' as I see it. The ability to then transfer wealth from one party to another, without the need to physically move it is another valid and useful and needed function. The ability to 'abstract out' this wealth in easy to carry 'tokens' is also a valid and useful and necessary function. Even the ability to produce more 'tokens' that represent wealth than actual wealth there is is a useful and valid function - but also a potentially dangerous one. As long as these tokens (money) that exist in exchange value greater than the actual physical wealth (grain) that exits that supports them, are in turn used to create more wealth (more harvest next year than last) and as long as everyone does not loose confidence in the 'grain standard' tokens (money) such that they all seek to change it back to grain at the same time, then the whole thing 'works' and it allows the village economy to grow faster than if you keep the grain standard tokens (money) at a one to one ratio with physical stored grain.

These are, as I understand it, the 'roots' of banking (centralised ledgers of wealth owned and ability to transfer wealth by adjusting ledgers) and money in the form of abstracted out tokens (notes and coins) that represent 'wealth' (in this case grain), and that can actually have a total 'grain value' in excess of the total amount of grain in existence.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:07 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
A Bank creates IOUs through lending.
............
When a loan is made, an IOU is credited to someone's account.
............
Now, as I said, an IOU is not creating money.


That's a fallacy. Of course it creates new money, and that's the difference between IOUs from loans(although I disagree they are actually IOUs) backed up by a collateral and other types of IOUs.
Imagine for a day all loans get paid off. Would you still insist the money in the market be it in electronic or cash form would still be the same???


No you don't get it.

It's not creating money. It's creating an IOU.

It's all about definitions. They have definitions for everything and I am not familiar with them all. To really get into it, you have to learn all about the M indices. It is a very complicated theory which requires considerable technical knowledge which I don't possess so all I can do is try and explain in laymen's terms.

When they make a loan, they are creating an IOU, which is effectively 'money' (but not physical money) in the economy or wealth. It might be called investment, or infrastructure or maybe something is being bought (transaction) or being built. There are many reasons. Usually, in many cases, people are being employed and they are being paid their salaries. It's money into the economy in the form of more IOUs into many bank accounts, but it's not creating money. That is something completely different. The money supply is usually a given amount, but it does fluctuate of course. The Central Bank tries to maintain an adequate supply which exceeds demand otherwise the system begins to fracture and then it snowballs.

When you have an IOU on your balance sheet, it is an entry on a Balance sheet but it is certainly not money unless it is converted. It's not physical money unless it is turned to cash (a fluctuating physical availability of cash)

Money creation is done from the Central Bank.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:13 am

erolz66 wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:What I am trying to figure out is how in the abstract world of Largely electronic IOU! Though some years back they all existed on paper in the ledgers of banks, etc, the process of wealth creation fits in, that is the supply of goods and services, and the relationship of the total value of those as expresed in monetary terms to the value of the Iou.


All as I understand it...................

.................These are, as I understand it, the 'roots' of banking (centralised ledgers of wealth owned and ability to transfer wealth by adjusting ledgers) and money in the form of abstracted out tokens (notes and coins) that represent 'wealth' (in this case grain), and that can actually have a total 'grain value' in excess of the total amount of grain in existence.


I agree with that........ a fair enough description. But what has gone wrong? I believe that the 'Grain Standard' was replaced with one or two of the representative 'grain currencies' that just went on and on and on .......... producing many millions of times more 'grain tokens' than there was grain. But we are now all hooked on the tokens ...... not the wealth they represent. We have lost our way mainly through our own ignorance of what was happening behind our backs over time. The access to information now is far greater than it has ever been, even deep government secrets are coming out and as a result we are beginning to question more! :roll:
Robin Hood
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