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BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:49 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:I just wanted to mention that according to professor Werner (his videos are all very short ~5 minutes each-worth watching them-link provided earlier by RH) there are a few things that can be applied even today with the EXISTING system.
According to him the Central Bank should follow a policy of the "carrot and stick" with the Banks giving them incentives to promote loans that would lead to a healthy economy and discourage loans for consumption or speculative purposes. Buying land (which is what most people do in Cyprus when they want to Invest) is actually a speculative act, it delivers nothing to the economy.
I was really curious to learn what kind of incentives he would propose, but when asked he said this:
One incentive would be the threat to remove them the PRIVILEGE they think they have for granted in making loans by exploiting the deposits to loans circle -as a like to call it or by issuing new money out of nothing as RH likes to call it.

NB. In Cyprus the Central Bank has absolutely no say on interest rates today. The Government literally begs the Banks to lower the interest rates however they refuse! Let aside the fact that we don't really have a Central Bank anymore-it's just an outlet of the ECB. See we are soooo clever that we assigned to others our right to regulate our own economy....


I would imagine that business is probably the biggest sector for lending in Cyprus and as we move forward it will become even bigger after things settle down a bit.

Young people are very business orientated. It's either than or earn 600 per month. I know what I would do. See the Bank immediately!

I will do the employing at 600 per month not get paid 600 per month.

All investment actually adds money to the economy. Even credit card expenditure. Also banks don't like giving out loans to non appreciating asset classes unless they get very high interest for it such as Credit Card facilities.


I already asked someone who is working at the central offices of one of the big Banks here, specifically at the LOANS department.I wanted to know of what types their loans are. He said the vast majority are "στεγαστικα"-Housing Loans. More than 70% are non performing...Second in a row are loans for new cars and other personal loans!
I insisted to learn how many loans they provide for say factories,machinery, equipment etc for use in productive areas. He said very few ever apply for such loans. About the same number as all those offshore companies that deal mainly with Finance, Holdings and Intl Trading
I am really wondering how healthy our economy is...
Of course they are willing to offer all sorts of loans as you can see from here
http://www.bankofcyprus.com.cy/
It looks there are no incentives though for those who want to invest in productive areas.


It's more important to ask about volumes rather than number of loans.

And 70% non-performing is not precedented anywhere else to my knowledge. That is way over the top. Over half the loans non-performing in Cyprus.

To me that suggests that in Cyprus you did not have Bankers in Cyprus but some idiots who did not know how Banking even works even.

The Banks were going down, it was just a matter of time as to when.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:55 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:Let's not take personal sides, I am as ignorant as Paphitis is. Perhaps more ignorant. I am just trying to learn from this discussion. :wink:


No one is more ignorant as Robin Hood.

I've been on the receiving end of Banks in the past. Could have been Bankrupted by the age of 18.

One more thing, when Banks make loans, the money never disappears. It remains. A credit is applied for the purchase of something and this IOU is usually credited to the seller of these Goods or Services. Unless they go to Las Wegas and gamble it away on Blackjack, the money remains whether even after the borrower pays the loan.

The money only disappears as the Borrowers liability and as a Banking Asset, yet could potentially remain as a Banking Liability but probably won't as the money will be used in one form or another.

Banks actually need to satisfy themselves of a few things before they give loans as follows:

1) the borrower and their credit rating,
2) the purpose of the loan and clients objectives and aims,
3) business plan if applicable,
4) market research and prospects,
5) security,
6) servicing or borrowers liquidity and ability to pay,
7) Banks and customer's exit strategy - yes a Bank never wants to be sending Bailif's out.
8. Borrowers leverage, exposure and Balance Sheet

Everything is black and white and on paper.

If you don't meet the requirements and prove everything of the above, the loan will never get off the ground.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:52 am

Robin Hood wrote:Government loans ....are a whole new ball game!!!! :!:

This would need to be preceded by revisions to the Bank Charter Act 1844 to include the cancellation of the inferred right of commercial banks to create electronic currency; the implementation of a Glass Steegal Type Act, to separate the commercial bank (Which is what I think we are talking about here?) from the Investment Banks. The latter should be cast off on their own to sink or swim, with absolutely no backing from tax payers, if they screw up. There would also need to be revisions to the Bank of England’s Charter that would enshrine the privilege to create ALL currency as their exclusive right.

The Central Bank should now be declared a department of Government that supplies currency to both the Government and private commercial banks. It would be a service to the treasury and would be responsible to Parliament and thus the people. It would not be run just by bankers, as it mainly is at the moment, but by eminent economists, academics, representative of Commerce and Industry, Government and banks.

As I see it ......... the CB would create currency, on demand for both the Government and the private banks, just as the commercial banks do now! But there the similarity ends .... I have already described how I believe the CB would cooperate with the private banks to provide personal and business loans but how the CB deals with the Government has one significant difference ............. they gift the currency to the Treasury as an investment ......... not lend it. How can they do that? .... simple! :wink:

They do just what the banks do now! They type in a number on their computer and ‘SEND’ it to the Treasury account! When the treasury spends it into circulation it becomes currency and is now part of the economy. But it is free of debt and interest. It never has to be repaid .... it is now a perpetual currency and will circulate ad infinitum. This is just what Paphitis was describing (although he didn’t know it!) when he described his $100 note being used over and over again and formed the basis of $1m in transactions. :roll:

When the Treasury spends it, the currency will go to everyone, from major contractors and suppliers, to their employees, to their grocer and even to the unemployed on benefits! They all spend and as a result generate direct taxes such as VAT and duty. It all goes back to the treasury eventually, to be re-spent over and over again ............ just like Paphitis $100 note and just like Paphitis $100 note .......... it is not inflationary! :)

But they are only able to do this because the money was not borrowed and thus the tax money collected is not required to repay loans, and the banks compound interest, by taking this new currency out of the economy, simply so that banks can write the sum off on their accounts, to keep the books straight.

Now all the Government agencies have to do is to balance their imports and exports, because buying imports will take currency out of the economy and convert it to a foreign currency and exporting goods and services will do the reverse. Aim is for at least a zero sum balance. The foreign currency is held by the Treasury and converted back to local currency.

This re-assignment of currency creation also has very significant impact on the National debt. Not the obvious that we would no longer be creating debt but we could actually pay off the existing national debt. The CB transfers to the treasury and from there to each commercial bank a sum equal to the National Debt owed to the bank. The bank follows the same protocol as it does now ........and writes the debt off on their books. The currency enters the economy for micro-seconds and is then destroyed by the bank. Debt to banks eliminated and not a cent permanently enters the economy. :D

What happens to the banks? ..... they take a drop in assets and thus their income ...... their problem not ours!

Let me apply this to a current situation as seen through the eyes of a ‘leftie’ - Port Talbot steel work’s and I will take a few liberties with the law .........

The new PM (By this time we have taken Cameron out of No. 10 and put in a clone with real balls!!) calls TATA’s boss .... by telephone and says “You, my office now!”

They meet and the PM gives him a cheque for the estimated scrap value of the plant and his air ticket home (economy).

The Government now owns the plant .... lock-stock-and-barrel. They sit down with the unions , the management and the PM tells them what he plans to do. The clone does a Putin on them ......... he makes a decision, tells them what he proposes and gives them the opportunity to add their ideas. No meetings of Cobra or jet-setting to get the approval of every Tom , Dick and Harry to get them on side and to get their approval ......... he just puts the plan agreed into action. :D

If I were that clone .......... I keep the plant operating for the time being. I would use the engineering expertise we have in country, to redesign the plant to the highest standards currently available as two or more production streams. Then, shut down say one stream of the plant and demolish it, using the current operators and hired contractors. Again using the available staff, issue a contract to private UK based industrial companies with the expertise to manage and to build the new plant. When the whole plant is complete as one of the most advanced and efficient plants on the planet ......... I put it up for sale to UK companies and make sure it remains in UK hands.

Costs a lot of currency to do this ...... but what the hell we create it ourselves anyway!

We can either use it to prop up a community that has maybe now a hundred thousand unproductive people in need ,or we use it to provide for the future. All the money spent goes back to the treasury ..... so the same Paphitis '$100' note goes around and around .......... at the speed of light! Nobody looses their home because they have no job and cannot afford the mortgage; no children have to pull out of a University because Mum and Dad have hit unforeseen hard times; no small businesses need to close because their primary customer has closed down ..... their business could even see an upturn, with the help of a (0%) bank loan, as they adapt to provide for the new plant; the schools all stay open; the hospitals are not jammed with people suffering from the stress related conditions caused by a monumental change to their lives and a community survives to look forward to a future. :D

And, all that just because we changed the way currency is provided for the state. Amazing what a bit of imagination can dream up............. init? :roll: :wink:


Good luck because it ain't gonna happen.

This system is bigger than Government and in fact even Go ernment is on a drip feed. Banks can pull the rug from under them and any Government that comes up with this brain fade of an idea will find Bankers bankrolling that Governments opposition. The opposition will get so much air time, the Government which actually has a stupid brain fade moment will become an irrelevance.

As I told you Robin Hood! Strap yourself in and listen to the safety brief if you want to remain a passenger but people generally want a bit more in life.

Oh and let me tell you how much I actually know about Banking. That Middle Eastern construction firm, wants my land to build 36000m2 in mixed used upper end commercial space and 16 levels of apartments and a 7 star hotel complex. All from land we own. A development of about 930 million. Bankers are feeding from our hands and finance already in place and if nothing else, the wine and dines were great and quite epic as well as the hotel stays in Dubai. And oh, that is how you negotiate options and futures as well as a Gulfstream contract which they are gonna pay for to bring wealthy people to buy the penthouses.

Thanks Dad! Never in my wildest dreams would I even think such things are even possible and I never even asked for it. It fell into my lap as they came to me.

They wanted my land, and they found me by doing property and security searches. And when they came to see me, I threw them out of my house.

Bloody arsy I say but fortune will always favor the brave.

And yes the money don't exist, however they are pretty cashed up. This is the kind of stuff that creates thousands of jobs.

That is also the reason why you need to structure yourself properly, because my family is going on a very bumpy yet exciting ride and if things go wrong I will take the fall for it, to protect them and I will make sure that while I bounce around from court to court (I am prepared for it), I will always have the money for the best lawyers and my wife will always have the money to look after herself and the children and their education just like my old man did for his family.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:35 am

Paphitis:

Your replies are irrational , increasingly bizarre and are contrary to everything the BoE, FED and experts such as Werner explain as the current working of the system and the way they see the remedy. Simply; the CB creating debt free currency, not private banks loaning it at interest!

You presented your example of the $100 serving transactions that total $1m. As it stood it could not work as there would be no inflation and the economy would just stagnate. I pointed that out to you. With the inclusion of the tax deductions, that is exactly what happens but you seem to shut your brain down and reject anything proposed as an improvement.

• You missed one crucial component of that action. Upon every use of that $100 a small amount will have been removed as taxes.

• Thus the amount/purchasing power of the original $100 steadily decreases over time. (Inflation)

• In the current system that deduction, due to taxes goes back to the bank to pay off the original $100 loan that created it.

• As a result the currency is returned to the bank where it is written off the books as a repaid loan

• To reinstate the currency, removed from circulation through taxes and eventually destroyed by the bank, a new loan has to be initiated

• In the proposal I have detailed and is what many people who are fully aware of how the system works, the CB would supply this currency, it would return to the treasury through the same taxation procedure as above, where it originated to be re-cycled into the economy.

• The currency is automatically reinstated when the Treasury re-spends the taxes collected.

You described just that scenario, so this is your impression of how it works and I agree with you, you just missed out the one crucial step that enables it to work.

Faced with a choice, if the two scenarios were offered to you as a government working in the interests of the people, which route would you chose?

A route via loans from the bank with compound interest, repaid by taxes on the population, only to be reinstated into the economy as yet another loan? (perpetual and exponentially increasing debt)

.... or....

A route free of both debt and interest where taxes are recycled and automatically go back into the system to be re-spent by the Treasury? (debt free and interest free)

IMO: A simple enough choice? :roll:
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:50 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:

Your replies are irrational , increasingly bizarre and are contrary to everything the BoE, FED and experts such as Werner explain as the current working of the system and the way they see the remedy. Simply; the CB creating debt free currency, not private banks loaning it at interest!

You presented your example of the $100 serving transactions that total $1m. As it stood it could not work as there would be no inflation and the economy would just stagnate. I pointed that out to you. With the inclusion of the tax deductions, that is exactly what happens but you seem to shut your brain down and reject anything proposed as an improvement.

• You missed one crucial component of that action. Upon every use of that $100 a small amount will have been removed as taxes.

• Thus the amount/purchasing power of the original $100 steadily decreases over time. (Inflation)

• In the current system that deduction, due to taxes goes back to the bank to pay off the original $100 loan that created it.

• As a result the currency is returned to the bank where it is written off the books as a repaid loan

• To reinstate the currency, removed from circulation through taxes and eventually destroyed by the bank, a new loan has to be initiated

• In the proposal I have detailed and is what many people who are fully aware of how the system works, the CB would supply this currency, it would return to the treasury through the same taxation procedure as above, where it originated to be re-cycled into the economy.

• The currency is automatically reinstated when the Treasury re-spends the taxes collected.

You described just that scenario, so this is your impression of how it works and I agree with you, you just missed out the one crucial step that enables it to work.

Faced with a choice, if the two scenarios were offered to you as a government working in the interests of the people, which route would you chose?

A route via loans from the bank with compound interest, repaid by taxes on the population, only to be reinstated into the economy as yet another loan? (perpetual and exponentially increasing debt)

.... or....

A route free of both debt and interest where taxes are recycled and automatically go back into the system to be re-spent by the Treasury? (debt free and interest free)

IMO: A simple enough choice? :roll:


You need to stop the hubris. It all began with Assad and Putin with you.

Now the Bankers or capitalism. I don't know where you're coming from, I just know you're playing with fire and really have no clue what it is you want to happen.

You think I am on the side of the Bankers. I am not! They are just enablers for many things. Everyone knows where they stand with them. But can't say the same about society.

I am on the green grocer's side. The farmer's side. The newlyweds who bought their home. And the kebab takeaway shop owners side. Not the bankers.

All I want is my very simple home in a Cypriot village, play tavli and maybe even take up golf just for the hell of it.

And I will relinquish everything one day just for that. And should my children get into trouble, then I will hop on a plane, go for a short holiday, jump on the sinking ship tell them to cut me adrift, become a registered bankrupt and even do the time while the continue their lives. I'll be out in 6 months anyway. The wolf of Wall Street was out in 6 months.

Then I will give my kids a big hug and a kiss, head back to Cyprus, my tavli and golf just for the hell of it.
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:51 am

Paphitis:
Good luck because it ain't gonna happen.

Wanna bet? :roll:
This system is bigger than Government .................

So you accept what I said “ It is the Banking System that runs the World show ..... not Governments” ? So,..... everything going wrong in this world is therefore down to the banking system?‘ :?:
Oh and let me tell you how much I actually know about Banking .................. Etc etc

Not a lot reading that. You seem to know how to capitalise your assets to make money. Good luck to you .... I hope it all works out for you!
And yes the money don't exist, however they are pretty cashed up. This is the kind of stuff that creates thousands of jobs.

It has also turned the ill-informed and unwary into paupers! :wink:

A very close friend (Cypriot) who has been very successful in his business life told me that the advice his father gave him was .......... “ Only borrow as a last resort, only what you can afford and NEVER agree to compound interest!”

Obviously sound advice ..... he is a millionaire several times over. :roll:
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:56 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:
Good luck because it ain't gonna happen.

Wanna bet? :roll:
This system is bigger than Government .................

So you accept what I said “ It is the Banking System that runs the World show ..... not Governments” ? So,..... everything going wrong in this world is therefore down to the banking system?‘ :?:
Oh and let me tell you how much I actually know about Banking .................. Etc etc

Not a lot reading that. You seem to know how to capitalise your assets to make money. Good luck to you .... I hope it all works out for you!
And yes the money don't exist, however they are pretty cashed up. This is the kind of stuff that creates thousands of jobs.

It has also turned the ill-informed and unwary into paupers! :wink:

A very close friend (Cypriot) who has been very successful in his business life told me that the advice his father gave him was .......... “ Only borrow as a last resort, only what you can afford and NEVER agree to compound interest!”

Obviously sound advice ..... he is a millionaire several times over. :roll:


You just leave the Bankers to the rest of us who are willing to play, and don't worry.

There are worse things in this world than Bankers. Because we all know where we stand. That is precious. There are no hidden secrets or conspiracies.

All those years at the racetracks in front of bookies in my formative years have bought out the gambler in me.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:06 am

Paphitis:
You need to stop the hubris. It all began with Assad and Putin with you.

As events have turned out I was not that far off the mark. I admire Putin for being what he is politically and as a real leader working in the interests of the Russian people. You hate him ..... unconditionally. To you he can do nothing of good! So, we differ in opinion, no big deal.

Now the Bankers or capitalism. I don't know where you're coming from, I just know you're playing with fire and really have no clue what it is you want to happen.

The OP was regarding the disparity between the Super Rich and the rest of us? Once you understand how the system works you very quickly see how this very powerfull banking system is operating to transfer wealth from the ‘poor’ (relatively speaking) to the rich and then the Super rich. So the gist of the posts has remained within the context of the original post.

You think I am on the side of the Bankers. I am not! ..... etc etc


You are expressing views that in intent would apply to any of us! But you seem unwilling to consider that when you look at the abundantly available evidence against this behemoth called ‘Banking’ ..... that it operates as an existential threat to every thing you say you stand for. No matter what I have offered you to support the view you reject it ........... I think your loyalty to the banking system is misguided. Nothing I can do about that. :wink:
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:27 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:
You need to stop the hubris. It all began with Assad and Putin with you.

As events have turned out I was not that far off the mark. I admire Putin for being what he is politically and as a real leader working in the interests of the Russian people. You hate him ..... unconditionally. To you he can do nothing of good! So, we differ in opinion, no big deal.

Now the Bankers or capitalism. I don't know where you're coming from, I just know you're playing with fire and really have no clue what it is you want to happen.

The OP was regarding the disparity between the Super Rich and the rest of us? Once you understand how the system works you very quickly see how this very powerfull banking system is operating to transfer wealth from the ‘poor’ (relatively speaking) to the rich and then the Super rich. So the gist of the posts has remained within the context of the original post.

You think I am on the side of the Bankers. I am not! ..... etc etc


You are expressing views that in intent would apply to any of us! But you seem unwilling to consider that when you look at the abundantly available evidence against this behemoth called ‘Banking’ ..... that it operates as an existential threat to every thing you say you stand for. No matter what I have offered you to support the view you reject it ........... I think your loyalty to the banking system is misguided. Nothing I can do about that. :wink:


About Assad, he is not in the clear. He will in fact be gone very soon and Putin knows it too.

Everyone knows it, and now Putin and Obama are coordinating. Slowly the pieces fall into place, and as you can see, the rebels are being left alone.

As for the super wealthy, there is nothing you can do about them. They are untouchable. Stop pretending you can. And stop pretending you are going to turn the planet on its head. Capitalism can not be stopped.

Banking makes the world spin. Your pension doesn't exist either but you can still go to an ATM machine.

I have no idea where you are coming from. Sounds like chaos and mayhem to me where we will be all killing each other for a meal. Only 3% of money exists they say. The other 97% is what everyone has in their accounts and keeps people employed.

For the time being, Bankers are my friends and I hope that don't change. If it does, then I am prepared to take the consequences, and I will protect my most precious assets of all (my family).

I am a supporter of the system that keeps everyone fat, dumb and happy. Not the Bankers. We all know the rules.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:10 am

Oh and Robin Hood,

I don't know if you are aware of The Wolf of Wall Street. He was a capitalist to say the least, and a convicted criminal. Eventually it all caught up with him. At least though, he literally only did what he did to the super wealthy. And he was a self confessed crack head and one of the most up-noxious people on the planet if you watch the movie, but he claims to be truly reformed (we will see). He is also back in business in the Gold Coast so we will see if he is really reformed or whether he gets up to his old tricks. Everyone deserves another chance I suppose. Because maybe he has seen the light. But he was a pretty nasty piece of work according to the FBI back in the day.

Certainly, in my book, can't be as bad as Putin. You know very well what I am talking about!
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