Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

The problem as i see it is this paradox of being at once Cypriot and then subdefining ourselves as TC or GC.

For what purpose?

This has been at the core of the state of Cyprus's dilema for as long as the state of Cyprus has existed. I would be more than happy if Cypriots on both sides were to truely forgo and foget their Greekness or Turkishness such that any talk of a 'federation' and 'political equality of the two communites' was not relevant or necessary. Unfortunately we are not at this point yet and there are real issues that we need to deal with before we can reach that point imo. These issues must be dealt with on the basis of a GC identity and TC identity beacuse that is simply the reality of how most (not all but most) people on both sides consider their idenities right now. I am just not sure how you might achieve both sides deciding they are Cypriots and not GC and TC without first building some sort of united Cyprus on that basis. It was the hope of the 60 consitituion that over time the G and T part of Cypriot identity would over time fade and leave just C identity. It would also be my hope of any settlement if and when it comes. I just do not see anyway of jumping from where are now to such a point without a considerable intervening period where the two communites actualy learn to live togeather in peace harmony an mutual respect. We failed to realise this 'dream' in 1960 onwards (with equal responsibility on both sides for that failure or 4 times 1 times responsibility - depending on your views on equality (sorry could not resist that)). In fact not only did we fail to achieve this 'dream' of a single Cypriot identity from 1960 onwards we have actualy made the situtation considerably worse than it was then and made the dream so much the harder to achieve as a result. I share your 'dream'. I want to find ways to create a chance of the dream becomming a reality.

[Piratis]

Partition will be the result of majority of GC family intransigency on the issue of political equality.

only if we racially divide GC & TC.

The problem as i see it is this paradox of being at once Cypriot and then subdefining ourselves as TC or GC.

For what purpose?

Hello eracles,
I touched this issue in this thread: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=414 .

The summary is that while others leave their terrible past hate behind, in Cyprus unfortunately some people wrongly believe that hate and division between Cypriots is something that will benefit them.

This is why at the same time we get more and more integrated into a single family with people that are so different from us (Latvians for examples), some people within our own house insist that in our home exist two families and not one.

The way they act is not something new. Most people will do it if they have something to gain. I was reading in the newspaper yesterday that 5.500 retirees declare that they are married while they are not so they will get a spouse allowance.

What should became clear to Turkish Cypriots is that while they have the right to feel more Turkish than Cypriots, what they have no right to do is to violate human rights and democratic principles.

This has been at the core of the state of Cyprus's dilema for as long as the state of Cyprus has existed. I would be more than happy if Cypriots on both sides were to truely forgo and foget their Greekness or Turkishness such that any talk of a 'federation' and 'political equality of the two communites' was not relevant or necessary.

I am sorry Erolz, but I don't believe that you would be more than happy. You don't miss a chance to declare the differences between us, and how 'evil' Greek Cypriots are etc.
When I was in the USA when I was asked I would always say I am from Cyprus and I am Cypriot. I didn't say Greek.

just do not see anyway of jumping from where are now to such a point without a considerable intervening period where the two communities actually learn to live together in peace harmony an mutual respect.

The first step is to convince people that they have nothing to gain from this separation. If people believe that hate and separation will benefit them then how are they going to show the goodwill that is needed to proceed with the rest of the steps?

The first step is not to give rewords for this hate and separation to some people. Because if you do then these people will never stop the hate because it will profit them.

So in this intervening period the message that should go out is not "We strive for separation and this separation will give us all these benefits", but "We strive for union, because this is the only way that we will get benefited".

[erolz]

The summary is that while others leave their terrible past hate behind, in Cyprus unfortunately some people wrongly believe that hate and division between Cypriots is something that will benefit them.

I am sorry Erolz, but I don't believe that you would be more than happy. You don't miss a chance to declare the differences between us, and how 'evil' Greek Cypriots are etc.

Is not portraying the TC motives for the current division on Cyprus to be simply and solely about TC greed and a desire for 'theft of that which belongs to GC' not just continuing 'hatred'? You want to forget everything except that which happened in 74. TC are to forget their sufferings but GC are to remember them forever until they get back that which they lost in 74 and return TC to the position they had been forced into in the period 63-74 - namely a minority in their own country that they were supposed to be equal partners in. This is continuing hatred and the reason for division.

You do not believe me. You believe what you want to believe. You WANT to believe that TC want division (despite their efforts to end it) because they are 'greedy', because they are 'robbers'. For you the only way you will accept that TC want to end division is if they agree to be a political minority in Cyprus - subservient to GC political domination. If they seek anything more than this they are actualy lying about wanting and end to division.

[Piratis]

"Memory" is associated with past events. The occupation is something that happens today, right at this moment we are talking, how can we forget about it? As I said we should leave the past behind, and I hope that the occupation will become a past event, so we can leave it behind as well and move forward.

You keep using this "minority in their own country" phrase. The way you say it is that nobody can be a minority in his/her own country or that there something wrong with being a minority (which obviously is not the case) Since you are are the 18%, you are a minority. This is self evident. You are acting like the coupists that because their candidate was not elected they decided to take the power by force. This is not how democracy works. You keep promoting our differences and hate between the two communities in order to receive way more power than proportionately belongs to you.

[insan]

"Memory" is associated with past events. The occupation is something that happens today, right at this moment we are talking, how can we forget about it? As I said we should leave the past behind, and I hope that the occupation will become a past event, so we can leave it behind as well and move forward.

You keep using this "minority in their own country" phrase. The way you say it is that nobody can be a minority in his/her own country or that there something wrong with being a minority (which obviously is not the case) Since you are are the 18%, you are a minority. This is self evident. You are acting like the coupists that because their candidate was not elected they decided to take the power by force. This is not how democracy works. You keep promoting our differences and hate between the two communities in order to receive way more power than proportionately belongs to you.

What TC community want:

1- Political Safe guard: Political equality on legislative and judicial bodies.

2- Military protection of Turkey: This will balance the military power of two communities. The presence of Turkish troops in Cyprus should be maintained at least until two communities get along fairly good with each other.

3- Properties exchange Agreement: Taking what belongs to them and giving the rest back by exchanging their properties in South with the ones they occupy in North.

4- Land ownership: Taking the land belongs to them and giving the rest back.

5- Restrictions on right to settlement and buy property: They want to ensure that they will always be the vast majority in their federal region. The population of GCs should never be exceeded %21 of total TC population in their federal State.

6- Making some communal and bi-communal projects in order to develop their Federal State and The Federation of Cyprus(FoC).


That's all.


TC community is one of the constituent of RoC and were constituting %18.4 of the population of Cyprus in 1960. Actually TC were constituting %24 of total population of Cyprus untill the 30s. In case of a fair, secure, viable solution a part of the ones who fled the other countries in 1946-74 period by oppression of some GC extremists and a partof the ones who fled other countries by oppression of Denktash regime will return no doubt. And be sure of that total TC population in Cyprus, without settlers; will be no less than %25 of total population. TCs will never have been and never be a minority in their homeland! Didn't you understand it in past 100 years. You are free to apply any international courts for what you believe is your right as you did in past 100 years. It can't help you to solve Cyprus problem the way you want.


In last 30 years Turkish governments haven't taken the Cyprus problem seriously because of their internal problems. Now many things have changed and the current Turkish Government without Denktash has a serious policy on Cyprus problem in order to solve it without damaging the rights and interests of two communities.


The Annan Plan was shaped under influence and force of TC and Turkish stausquoers. I give in that it is not fair but unfairness of Annan Plan doesn't arise of its provisions based on political equality of two communities.

[erolz]

The occupation is something that happens today, right at this moment we are talking, how can we forget about it?

and your insistance that TC can not have any status in their own country greater than a political minority is something that happens today, right at this moment.

You keep using this "minority in their own country" phrase. The way you say it is that nobody can be a minority in his/her own country or that there something wrong with being a minority (which obviously is not the case) Since you are are the 18%, you are a minority. This is self evident. You are acting like the coupists that because their candidate was not elected they decided to take the power by force. This is not how democracy works. You keep promoting our differences and hate between the two communities in order to receive way more power than proportionately belongs to you.

No I am acting like someone who believes that a unifed Cyprus should represent the needs and requirments of both the siginificant communites that make it up, as was agreed when the state was founded. My insistance that TC community should have equal democratic status as a community as the GC community is neither anti democratic or hate filled or 'promoting' our differences (but it does recognise the reality of our past and current differences). It is no more 'hate filled' than your insistance that TC can only be a political minority in their own country. It is no more 'hate filled' than your denial that there are differences between the communites and what they want, historicaly and today.

[Piratis]

What TC community want:

1- Political Safe guard: Political equality on legislative and judicial bodies.

2- Military protection of Turkey: This will balance the military power of two communities. The presence of Turkish troops in Cyprus should be maintained at least until two communities get along fairly good with each other.

3- Properties exchange Agreement: Taking what belongs to them and giving the rest back by exchanging their properties in South with the ones they occupy in North.

4- Land ownership: Taking the land belongs to them and giving the rest back.

5- Restrictions on right to settlement and buy property: They want to ensure that they will always be the vast majority in their federal region. The population of GCs should never be exceeded %21 of total TC population in their federal State.

6- Making some communal and bi-communal projects in order to develop their Federal State and The Federation of Cyprus(FoC).


That's all.

What the community of HC (Handsome Cypriots) wants:

1- Political Safe guard: Political equality on legislative and judicial bodies.

2- Military protection - just 30 T80 Tanks and 25 Apache helicopters will do.

3- Properties exchange Agreement: We will give you our land at trivilloura in exchange with the Protaras and Famagusta beach areas.

4- Land ownership: You will give us some land, we will use it for free for 30 years and then we will give back to you part of it.

5- Restrictions on right to settlement and buy property: Only people that are willing to pay lots of money to stay at our resorts can pass in our area. The rest should go to trivilloura.

Thats all.

I hope all you ugly ones don't have a problem with these.

all we need now is just lots of guns and soldiers, to go kill many many people, to steal and rape. Then the others should be willing to accept our very simple needs.

[erolz]

I hope all you ugly ones don't have a problem with these.

all we need now is just lots of guns and soldiers, to go kill many many people, to steal and rape. Then the others should be willing to accept our very simple needs.

No that is not all you need. You also need a state that was founded on the prinicpal of two seperate communites of HC and UC. One where prior to its founding the UC wanted and fought and killed for something that was totaly against the wishes of the HC. One where before and after the founding of the state a numericaly superior UC community and HC community fought and killed each other. Where the UC community ended up with all the power of the state and used that power in it's fight with the smaller weaker HC. One where neither community consider itself cypriot but members of much larger seperate and older states of the Republic of the Ugly and the Republic of the Handsome. One where each community spoke different langauges, followed different religions, and did not inter marry to any significant degree. One where the 'motherland' coutries of each group had a long and atagonistic history.

Your 'joking'? comparisions ignore just about every factor that has shaped the situation in Cyprus to date.

[Piratis]

Nop, all we need is power. Give us power and you will see how we will get everything we demand by force. Maybe we don't have the same excuses as we TC, but HC have other excuses: We were oppressed for several decades because only UC people were elected as presidents, never a minister in the government has been a HC (ok, just one), and HC had 100s of victims both before 74 and during the Turkish invasion. Further more UC are so ugly we can't live near them. If we see them in the morning our day goes bad. This is another major reason why we need our own separate state. The UC who are the majority, heavily taxed items that they consider "luxury" such as Porsche cars, which is something totally against our culture. We need the power to stop the UC domination against us!!!

[insan]

Nop, all we need is power. Give us power and you will see how we will get everything we demand by force.

Ask it to your "allies" in EU or encourage the Greek lobbists in US, UK, Canada, Australia; all around the world to provide you the power you need to impose your dream and get everything you demand.