Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

These laws are still valid unless and util they are repealed,

Not when they have been amended. It's the amendment that's valid and you're still quoting 12 year old laws that have been amended a few times since then. I showed you one. There are further amendments.

Despite all your efforts to distort and obfuscate and twist over months now, reality remains exactly the same.

There have been and are NO amendments that mean the EU Commission does not have a legal duty and a right to evaluate individual members states implementation of that states obligations of Schengen rules within that member state.
There have been and are NO amendments that mean if in such a evaluation it is found that that member states is 'seriously deficient' in meeting ITS obligations , the Commission is not required to then make a list of recommendations that the member state concerned should implement in order to rectify the identified serious deficiencies OF that member state.
There have been and are NO amendments that mean the EU Council, on receipt of such recommendations from the Commission can not then, via an implementing decision of the Council, require the member state concerned to rectify the deficiencies and placing upon them a three month deadline to do so.
There have been and are NO amendments that mean that if the member state concerned fails to rectify the identified serious deficiencies within the three month deadline, the EU Council can not then suspend that member state from Schengen for up to 2 years.

If nothing else (and there have been amendments as discussed), there's been one major amendment that acts as an umbrella to ALL - and that is that the EU had been seriously deficient in predicting such an unprecedented swarm of problems arriving from Turkey!

Under the circumstances, the only valid outcome is that the EU has cherry-picked those factors that might make a difference EVEN if they were not available TO YOU for viewing and posting as immutable laws! That is why what we are seeing happening eg. NATO help, migrant returns to Turkey etc., were solutions that had NOT been put down on paper in 2004 (stud's favourite archive) or discussed in press releases until we have seen them being put into practice.

You're just mad because the EU has accepted responsibility for the management of the external borders.

[erolz66]

Despite your months of distortions, manipulations, obfuscations, twisting, ad hominen attacks and all the rest the FACTS and REALITY remain the SAME.

GREECE was found as part of a legal evaluation carried out as per existing Schengen law, to be "seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities." Not FRONTEX, not Sweden, not Belgium, not the EU as a whole, but GREECE.

GREECE as per existing Schegen law, was given 3 months to rectify the identified serious deficienceis. Not FRONTEX, not Sweden, not Belgium, not the EU as a whole, but GREECE.

If GREECE fails to do this the EU Council can legally under existing Schengen law suspend GREECE from Schengen for up to two years. Not FRONTEX, not Sweden, not Belgium, not the EU as a whole, but GREECE.

These are the FACTS and the REALITY. You screaming and shouting for months that when the EU says "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" it actually means "FRONTEX or the EU or any entity other than Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" does not and has not changed REALITY at all. The reality remains that it was GREECE that was so found. You spending months trying to claim that the rules governing this process are 'obsolete' does not and has not changed REALITY at all. You trying to make out that the evaluation report that 'mattered' was more critical of other countries than Greece does not and has not changed the reality at all. The reality remains that the evaluation report that started this legal, current and non obsolete process, was and is a report that was about GREECE and only Greece.

Despite what you may think in your own head you can NOT change reality just by relentlessly screaming here for months and months. Reality exists, outside of the fantasies in your head, and continues to do so regardless of your pathetic behaviour here.

[supporttheunderdog]

These laws are still valid unless and util they are repealed,

Not when they have been amended. It's the amendment that's valid and you're still quoting 12 year old laws that have been amended a few times since then. I showed you one. There are further amendments.

Yes but you have look at whst the amendments do. And they are amendments, not repealing or replacement legislation, save for the changes, which are minor and mostly technical changes, not substantial or substantive alterations to the fundamentals, and where the collective body iscknown as 2007/2004' , as amended, not by any if those amendments. I do not think you will find anything changed the fundemental responsibility of the member nations to control their borders . They have better defined the limited role of Frontex In the context of ec2007/2004.,which but for the limited changes remains valid and in force.

That is including para 4 which clearly states the primary obligation of the member states to control their border, with Frontex providing limited support in accordance with ex2007/2004 as amended. Para 4 may be 12 years old but it has not bern changed. It is thus valid, and thus disposes of your point about shared responsibility which sought to imply that Greece was not responsible and could not thus be found in serious deficiency which if course she was.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I'm pleased to finally see that you accept your doctrine is not immutable and that amendments have been made. There are some more recent ones not just the one I gave you.

However, what you and your sidekick refuse to accept is that 'recommendations' are just that. 'Evaluations' are just that. What the EU decides to DO and how it interprets the whole picture - and I mean the whole picture that could not have been imagined when the 2004 laws were first set up, is to proceed to carry out what it must to rectify the present novel situation. This has been identified as such! First they act quickly when observations have revealed shortcomings in the system and then they set about modifying the laws to take account of new findings. Trial and error!

With that in mind, shut up about outdated laws and respond to what is actually happening right now and how much of THAT the EU is currently getting right or wrong!

[supporttheunderdog]

It is not a matter of my doctrine, where what you call my position, but which is in fact the legal position, remains unchanged, that under eu law Greece was and is principally responsible for monitoring its borders, and for failings in discarging that duty ,identified as serious deficiencies , abd where Greece has beeb required to present plans to cwhere your immutable doctrine has been that There are no serious deficiencies in the manner of the discharge of Greece's responsibilities for monitoring snd recording people crossing the external borders, rather there was shared responsibility which took away from Greece criticism for the serious deficiencies.

You have tried certain gymnastics with words, if not humpty dumpty language about the law,vto seek to deflect criticism from Greece, that is where you have not resorted to bland assertion .... Gig says, so it must be true, or bland denial. Gig says it cannot be true so it is not,....seldom supported by any objective evidence..and the little you have produced does not support your basic case about shared resposibility, and this latest attempt to misrepresent my point of view is just another of your straw man arguments.

It will not work.

The amendments are, for the purposes of this debate irrelevant since while changing parts of Ec 2007/2004; the rest of EC2007/2004, though it may be twelve years old is still valid, they do not change the fundamental responsibility of the member states for control of their external borders, i.e. with non schengen states.

Do you agree that is a correct statement if the law, as it now stands, ie that the member nations are primarily responsible for the control of their borders and if not please quote chapter and verse of the sections you rely upon.

As to What the Eu is doing, it is rightly insisting Greece puts its house in order and corrects the serious deficiencies, and if, with or with out assistance from FRONTEX operating under the auspices of current Eu law, including ec2007/2004 as amended, 1051/2013 and 1053/2013' , etc Greece does not do so then The EU might suspend the Schengen open border policy as far a Greece is concerned, either in whole or in part. They are providing help primarily to protect the rest of the EU, where Greece was in serious deficiency.

Could you also confirm you agree that is the correct current position and again if not provide chapter and verse on the official EU papers that set aside the evaluation or the report or the various decisions, such as that of 12 Feb, and the recent review, which found parts of the presented plan insufficient in some way?

I sincerely hope that Greece succeeds.

I can however even predict what you will say in reply to my two questions.

Here you will mos probably not quote any official documents, either law or decisions, but will probably engage in bland assertion and/or bald denial to some vague reality of what you think the eu is doing and why,

As to the rest, if she is succesful ,you will probably try to that Erolz and i were wrong, but that too would be another of your lies, because the facts will remain the same, that Greece was evaluated, serious deficiencies were found, which Greece was obliged to correct, which to the credit of Greece, she managed. That i hope is what will happen. If she is not, no doubt you will try to find away to blame us, or e.g the Belgians, and you are to me beyond redemption for your comments linking the tragic events there to their criticisms of Greece, for the situation.

[GreekIslandGirl]

European countries promised to provide hundreds of asylum officials to help Greece care for the detainees, but most of this support has yet to arrive.

Guardian

Come ON EU - get your act together!

You are failing Greece in her lonely efforts to help the world!

[supporttheunderdog]

European countries promised to provide hundreds of asylum officials to help Greece care for the detainees, but most of this support has yet to arrive.

Guardian

Come ON EU - get your act together!

You are failing Greece in her lonely efforts to help the world!

Can you quote a link so we can read the full article ?

As I said earlier (without any encouragement from anyone else) if the EU and other EU member states are failing in their obligation then I would join in criticising them - which I so now do.

The Guardian has others which do not portray the EU in a good light

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/15/eu-relocates-just-208-refugees-from-greece-after-deal-with-turkey\

Union fails to honour pledge to help with fallout from agreement, taking in a fraction of 6,000 people it should have welcomed

European countries have failed to uphold a pledge to help Greece cope with the fallout from the EU-Turkey deal, relocating less than 3.5% of the refugees they promised to accept when the deal was first agreed.

According to figures released by the EU this week, just 208 refugees have been relocated from Greece to other countries in Europe since 16 March, a small fraction of the 6,000 that European countries promised to welcome by this point. It is an even smaller proportion of the 160,000 that EU members promised to relocate from Greece and Italy last September.

Not on!

[quote ="GreekIslandGirl"]Come ON EU - get your act together! [/quote]

[erolz66]

Can you quote a link so we can read the full article ?

The article this single line is taken from (and rfeproduiced here in bold oversized text) can be seen here

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... ntre-chios

The headline for the article is "Refugee babies detained on Greek island 'not getting adequate milk'" and the 'summary' of it under that headline is "Asylum seekers being held in detention centre allege babies under six months old are being given just 100ml of milk a day'

[GreekIslandGirl]

Yes, it's rather disgraceful the so-called sympathetic European countries have turned their backs on these mums and babies!

I was going to do a thread on it but noticed it has attracted a lot of controversy regarding the pros and cons of bottle feeding babies with formula. (That's a whole other issue!)

- Either way, the promised help is far too slow in arriving where it's NEEDED!

HELP GREECE YO HELP THE MIGRANTS!

[supporttheunderdog]

Yes, it's rather disgraceful the so-called sympathetic European countries have turned their backs on these mums and babies!

I was going to do a thread on it but noticed it has attracted a lot of controversy regarding the pros and cons of bottle feeding babies with formula. (That's a whole other issue!)

- Either way, the promised help is far too slow in arriving where it's NEEDED!

HELP GREECE YO HELP THE MIGRANTS!

One must question what the arrangements are at this camp for procuring adequate nutrition and why they are not providing enough.

However as for aid for Greece under several programs Help was already in hand from ad far back as early 2015 and under these schemes In total at least Euro 690 million has already been allocated Greece as emergency aid f to deal with the migrant crises though it has probably not all been distributed

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/background-information/docs/20160412/factsheet_managing_refugee_crisis_eu_financial_support_greece_en.pdf

The latest news from Tuesday is that more money is being arranged.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1447_en.htm

European Commission - Press release
EU provides €83 million to improve conditions for refugees in Greece

Brussels, 19 April 2016

EU humanitarian partners receive new emergency support funding in Greece. Today the European Commission announces €83 million under the new Emergency Assistance Instrument, proposed by the Commission on 2 March, to improve living conditions for refugees in Greece, with funding made available immediately to the UNHCR, the International Federation of the Red Cross and six international NGOs. These partners will be working with Greek NGOs who have the necessary local knowledge.
EU Commissioner for Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Management, Christos Stylianides, signed the first contracts in Athens today under the new instrument for emergency support within the EU, set up to help Member States cope with crises, such as large numbers of refugees.
"We have to restore dignified living conditions for refugees and migrants in Europe as swiftly as possible. With the first projects active on the ground we are showing a concrete example of how the EU delivers on the challenges Europe faces. The funding will go to humanitarian aid partners that are working hand-in-hand with the Greek government and local NGOs to ensure that aid is provided in a well-coordinated and structured way in as many places as possible." said Christos Stylianides, EU Commissioner for Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Management.

I do however ask again what has gone wrong here...