Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

And yes Greece would be better able to deal with the immigration crisis.

At the moment Greece is limited by what it can do due to limited resources and also due to restrictions imposed by the EU and Schengen.

If Greece did not have these restrictions, then it can cope with the crisis far better, but Greece will be criticised for it and even be accused for gross violations against the UNHCR, and by organisations such as Amnesty International.

A country that has had an influx of more than 1 million illegal immigrants in 12 months has no other choice if it wants to survive. There comes a point when they need to bight the bullet, and basically close the borders completely.

[erolz66]

One example is once again Greece, which is being cut off and stranded by Schengen and the EU. So called "partner" States are closing their borders and Greece may back fill with illegal immigrants. The calamity Greece may face if there is no solution may be unprecedented.

So do you really think that a Greece that had never joined the EU or Schengen, faced with the refugee crisis such as it is today, would be better off in regards to trying to deal with this crisis ? I understand that you feel that other EU / Schengen countries should be doing more to help Greece, but are you really saying that Greece would be more able to deal with such a crisis if it were outside the EU ?

Yes I unfortunately believe 100% that Greece would have been better off with the Drachma, because it could inflate its debt and achieve more growth. But it would not be a perfect situation by any stretch. There is also the issue of ripping out the countries soul and taking away a people's dignity - this is what has happened to Greece and its people. If you remove these things, people lose their hope and that is the worse thing of all.

Sorry Paphitis but you simply have not addressed the question I asked, which was specifically about Greece's ability to deal with the current refugee crisis. Do you think Greece would be better able to deal with this crisis if itr were outside the EU ?

As to having control of ones currency, then yes it does give you an ability to manipulate the value of that currency relative to others so that you can do so specifically to suit your own individual needs. However you can not have this benefit and at the same time have all the benefits of being able to borrow money on the international markets based on the strength and competitiveness of other countries (like Germany etc). I think if Greece had never joined the euro zone it would not be in such a mess today, but that is because if it had not joined the euro zone it would not have been able to borrow the amounts that it did on the terms that it did and then in turn spend them on non wealth creating endeavours. So yes in that sense it would be better off today, though it would have been worse of in the period 2001 to 2008 as well.

Another example I can give you. Wages in Greece are low, very low. Germany could set up Volkswagon, and BMW factories in Greece to take advantage of Greece's International competitiveness and reduce their overhead. The advantage for Greece is that Greeks will have jobs, good technical jobs where young people can even develop solid careers in the automotive industry.

Rather than do this, they are setting up factories in Brazil and Turkey.

Wages in Greece may be low compared to Germany but they are not as low as in Brazil or Turkey. Nor is it just about wages either I am afraid. There is the issue of productivity, trade union attitudes and other factors besides.

The EU is a dead duck I'm afraid.

It may well be a dead duck. It is an experiment without precedent. I however believe that it does more good that harm over all for those within it and is worth persevering with.

[erolz66]

There comes a point when they need to bight the bullet, and basically close the borders completely.

So you believe that Greece alone could effectively physically block sea crossings by migrants into Greece ? Really ?

[Paphitis]

There comes a point when they need to bight the bullet, and basically close the borders completely.

So you believe that Greece alone could effectively physically block sea crossings by migrants into Greece ? Really ?

Yes I believe Greece can do this VERY EASILY!

I've seen it done before and use to work in the area covering an EEZ and border far larger than all of Europe.

It should be a lot easier for Greece, because Greece has a far larger military and the sea approaches are miniscule compared to Australia for instance. Australia invests billions in technology which Greece does not need to rely on as much.

The problem however is, Greece will NEVER be allowed to do what Australia does, and if it does manage to free itself, it will be criticized for doing it by Amnesty International, but Greece won't be a country with a burden of over 1 million illegal immigrants.

Yes Greece is able to do it easily.

And if they don't know how, all they need to do is have consultations with Australia to find out how it is done because Australia has effectively shut down the trade by hitting at the source. Many EU countries have already started to consult Australia, but they have their hands tied by the EU.

[Paphitis]

Sorry Paphitis but you simply have not addressed the question I asked, which was specifically about Greece's ability to deal with the current refugee crisis. Do you think Greece would be better able to deal with this crisis if itr were outside the EU ?

The answer to this is very easy. You shut down the border, intercept all boats and ships, board them and turn them around. You would use Military, Police and Coast Guard assets to do this, and Greece has a substantial military to be able to do it adequately. Some will get through. Then its mandatory detention if you like as an effective deterrent. The system works very well and is currently practiced by Australia. Eventually, illegal immigrants will need to find an alternative route.

As to having control of ones currency, then yes it does give you an ability to manipulate the value of that currency relative to others so that you can do so specifically to suit your own individual needs. However you can not have this benefit and at the same time have all the benefits of being able to borrow money on the international markets based on the strength and competitiveness of other countries (like Germany etc). I think if Greece had never joined the euro zone it would not be in such a mess today, but that is because if it had not joined the euro zone it would not have been able to borrow the amounts that it did on the terms that it did and then in turn spend them on non wealth creating endeavours. So yes in that sense it would be better off today, though it would have been worse of in the period 2001 to 2008 as well.

Greece was a member of the EU and was unable to borrow from the international markets. The UK, Japan, Australia, Canada, and many many more are printing and are able to borrow and have triple AAA credit ratings.

Wages in Greece may be low compared to Germany but they are not as low as in Brazil or Turkey. Nor is it just about wages either I am afraid. There is the issue of productivity, trade union attitudes and other factors besides.

Well there you go. Which is why the EU is doomed to fail.

These corporations want the cheapest even though Greece is cheap enough and also a "sister" State which they had to bail out.

In other words, there is no Union! No one cares about Greece or anyone else for that matter within the EU. Sorry but that is no Union.

It may well be a dead duck. It is an experiment without precedent. I however believe that it does more good that harm over all for those within it and is worth persevering with.

What goes round comes round.

Euro skepticism is a growth industry and it doesn't have to look far to find reasons why Britain or Greece are better off without it. The EU itself provides that ammunition.

[Robin Hood]

Robin, having voted "OUT" , understandable of course since you are expressing your view that coming out Europe would be in the best interests of Britain, do you think really that there is the remotest chance that Britain will exit the EU ?

Having listened to businessmen, farmers, even small shopkeepers im convinced that the " IN " vote will win and by a large margin. My own prediction is a landslide for the "INs".

As I said IMO the decision is already made and the UK WILL remain IN the EU. If they voted to leave the EU all the major banks/EU Bureaucracy/IMF/BIS/World Bank etc. would throw absolutely every obstacle in their way to make sure they become a failed State. The UK would be used as an example to deter others from doing the same.

(IMO) They could 'go-it-alone' but it would be huge task as the UK has no significant industry any more, it relies very much on the banking and financial sector. That would disappear almost overnight, if they left the EU. I would have liked to have seen Tsipras/Varoufakis and the Cypriot government stick a finger to the EU ..... and pull out when they had a chance. They would have survived as they have smaller economies and could have reverted to a non reserve currency.

Iceland pulled out of negotiations for entry to the EU and they are well on the way to recovery. They also went for the bankers, jailed them and are going for a revision of the banking system so that it is the State that creates currency, not private banks.

[Robin Hood]

Robin, having voted "OUT" , understandable of course since you are expressing your view that coming out Europe would be in the best interests of Britain, ....

As far as I understanding him he is saying he voted 'come out' because he believed that would be the worse option for the UK ?

My personal preference would be OUT because in the long run it would be best for the UK. But the people in the UK have a mentality that says 'don't-rock-the-boat'! OUT would mean a huge upheaval to their way and standard of living short term and they will not risk that.

I regard the referendum as theatrics ...... to prove a point ...... IMO the decision is already made and Cameron has his orders to ensure the people are seen to be in favour of staying.

[miltiades]

Robin, having voted "OUT" , understandable of course since you are expressing your view that coming out Europe would be in the best interests of Britain, ....

As far as I understanding him he is saying he voted 'come out' because he believed that would be the worse option for the UK ?

My personal preference would be OUT because in the long run it would be best for the UK. But the people in the UK have a mentality that says 'don't-rock-the-boat'! OUT would mean a huge upheaval to their way and standard of living short term and they will not risk that.

I regard the referendum as theatrics ...... to prove a point ...... IMO the decision is already made and Cameron has his orders to ensure the people are seen to be in favour of staying.

Robin, surely the decision will be made by the British voters on referendum day. Cameron has indeed made the decision, correct in my opinion, to campaign for a stay vote, the business world, banking, insurance, finance, the City are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in, they obviously consider staying in as beneficial to the nation and to their businesses . The British public is hesitant in entering the " unknown and come polling day they will, the majority, vote for a continued membership of the EU.

"This morning, the Institute of Directors and the EEF, the manufacturers' trade body, which collectively represent the interests of 40,000 companies across the country, said polls of their members showed more than 60 per cent are in favour of remaining in the EU."

[Paphitis]

There are many countries outside of the EU who are doing a roaring trade as far as business, development, and investment are concerned. Asia Pacific is where it's all at - South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, USA, Canada and Australia. It's their Century!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

Britain is a powerful country, so if they can't tap into European and Asian markets then you're all stuffed!

[miltiades]

There are many countries outside of the EU who are doing a roaring trade as far as business, development, and investment are concerned. Asia Pacific is where it's all at - South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, USA, Canada and Australia. It's their Century!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

Britain is a powerful country, so if they can't tap into European and Asian markets then you're all stuffed!

The EU is not only about trade, other factors must be considered. The fact that since the end of WW2 Europe has had peace and relative stability. There have of course been a number of conflicts, Bosnia for instance, but not a world war. I beleive in a much stronger EU , it must survive and thrive for the sake of future generations. A strong EU is the future for Europe.