Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

...GiG insisting to refuse that Greece would ever do anything against the rules ...

Not true. I accept Greece has been overwhelmed with migrants and certain procedures had to be abandoned due to constraints. But I also know that the EU were supposed to supply Frontex help and assistance which they failed to do. So Greece has done the best it could under the most extreme of circumstances and mostly without the help the EU was supposed to supply to the EXTERNAL EU Borders.

Maybe some of this has to do with Turkey firing at Frontex ... As well as offloading migrants into the Aegean, Turkey has been intimidating efforts by Frontex to patrol and assist:

In September 2009, a Turkish military radar issued a warning to a Latvian helicopter patrolling in the eastern Aegean—part of the EU's Frontex programme to combat illegal immigration—to leave the area. The Turkish General Staff reported that the Latvian Frontex aircraft had violated Turkish airspace west of Didim.[22][full citation needed] According to a Hellenic Air Force announcement, the incident occurred as the Frontex helicopter—identified as an Italian-made Agusta A109—was patrolling in Greek airspace near the small isle of Farmakonisi, which lies on a favourite route used by migrant smugglers ferrying mostly Third World migrants into Greece and the EU from the opposite Turkish coastline.[23] Frontex officials stated that they simply ignored the Turkish warnings as they were not in Turkish airspace and continued their duties. Frontex later took photographs of the Turkish Coast Guard escorting illegal immigrants towards Greek waters and the photos accompanied by written evidence were submitted to EU authorities.[24]
Another incident took place on October 2009 in the airspace above the eastern Aegean sea, off the island of Lesbos.[25][better source needed] On 20 November 2009, the Turkish General Staff issued a press note alleging that an Estonian Border Guard aircraft Let L-410 UVP taking off from Kos on a Frontex mission had violated Turkish airspace west of Söke.

Wiki

[Pyrpolizer]

Ok suppose they get the Nobel Prize.
Who is going to get it?
We know part of it is some 1 million (?) US$.
Has there been another case in the past that a not clearly defined group of people got the Nobel?

Noble prizes are often awarded to multiple people and the prize money split between them, as in here for example from last year

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/ ... ates/2015/

but it has never been split between 100,s and thousands or more.

Oh it has been split over millions of people when the EU got it in 2012!
I am not sure they will that willing to bend their rules of having to award it to either individuals or Institutions though.
But if they do, and award it to the islanders that would be a nice.
it would be better than awarding it to war criminals like Kissinger

[Sotos]

I agree that under the circumstances it wold be very difficult for Greece to follow the rules. The refugees are way too many and strictly processing each and every one would require a lot of money, money that Greece needs elsewhere. Didn't they pay Turkey billions to halt the influx of refugees in EU?

[erolz66]

This whole issue was blown out of proportion by GiG and Erolz (GiG insisting to refuse that Greece would ever do anything against the rules and Erolz reacting as if this issue is a huge deal)

I will not deny that I was a party to the tedious exchanges with GiG re the EU Commissions finds and announcement re Greece and its Schengen obligations and thus bear some culpability for those relentless exchanges. I would however argue that my stubbornness and refusal to 'stop' arguing was not because I believed the the issue was a 'huge one' ot that no other country has ever 'not applied EU rules'. It was I argue driven by the sheer relentless blanket denial of reality by GiG. That was what drove me on. And on. And on. And on. And on.

[erolz66]

Didn't they pay Turkey billions to halt the influx of refugees in EU?

The negotiations between the EU and Turkey over the deal to pay Turkey in exchange for it taking more actions to reduce the flow (not halt, that would be absurd) of migrants passing through Turkey on their way to other EU destinations is ongoing and by all accounts is quite 'fraught', specifically over the details of how money is disbursed and how the EU 'verifies' that Turkey is not just taking the money and doing f all to reduce the flow or migrants through Turkey to the EU.

For what it is worth I think the whole approach is wrong and I have concerns that it will prove impossible for the EU to ensure that the money it gives is used effectively for the ends it hopes to achieve. What is needed imo in order for migrants to be encouraged to remain in Turkey rather than seeking to pass through it on their way to EU countries is employment opportunities. I think the encouraging of EU companies to set up new factories and other employment opportunities via tax breaks and other inducements (using the same 3 billion) in key areas in Turkey and on the basis that they provide employment specifically for those refugees would be a better approach. This would be a longer terms solution of course but one that I personally think would be more effective ultimately.

In many ways the the pressures Greece is facing are the same as those Turkey is also facing, the main difference being that Greece is in the EU and a Schengen member and Turkey is not.

Just today it has been reported that 15,000 more refugees have massed at the Turkish / Syrian boarder as a result of Syrian army backed by Russian air power action in the aleppo province. The situation is desperate.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35503343

[Paphitis]

No, we must credit where Credit is due to the individuals concerned for what they are doing....

Our posts crossed, but let me say - exactly.

I covet your ability for succinctness btw. Said what I was trying to say using so few less words.

Erolz, you didn't answer my question. You dodged it by not being very clear. I also don't want the waffle, just a clear answer to my question please.

Do you agree, that the islanders of the Aegean have displayed remarkable altruism and probably deserve the noble nomination and even the Nobel Peace Prize? this is in actual fact recognition by the International Community that these Greek Islanders have gone over and beyond all other Schengen Countries which are not being recognized in the same manner, in fact they are criticized as behaving differently to the Greeks.

I have some more questions and expect a clear answer with no waffle.

Do you also agree, that it is in many cases impossible for Greece to apply Schengen to all refugees because many of them are in fact Stateless? The MSM have not mentioned this detail but the HRW does.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm

Do you also agree, that it is practically impossible for Greece to offer the support and the humanitarian aid to all these Syrian Refugees which have overwhelmed the country beyond the capacity of the available resources it has to offer them by way of food, shelter, medical help, let alone look at their paperwork which many don't have and take their finger prints etc? If 900,000 refugees came through Lesbos, then I am sure the 10 cops on Lesbos will be taking fingerprints for the next 5 years non stop.

We are talking about a country on its knees even without the refugee crisis. To explain to you how critically dire the situation in Greece is, Government Hospitals even in Athens simply don't even have or are running low on medicines such as antibiotics and penicillin.

Do you also agree, that the current Greek Government, being a Socialist one of the far left, probably has more compassion for these refugees than ANY of the Schengen Zone members but just doesn't have the available resources without critical assistance from overseas Governments, the EU and Schengen.

I watched a documentary where an Australian Volunteer Doctor was showing camera crews examples of Greek Elderly pensioners changing nappies of Syrian Children, feeding them milk, and even offering them shelter in their own homes.

This is aside from the fact that Greek Fishermen and the Coastguard have probably saved the lives of hundreds of Syrians that could have drowned from Turkish people smugglers and profiteers on their death trap leaking dinghies.

[erolz66]

Do you agree, that the islanders of the Aegean have displayed remarkable altruism and probably deserve the noble nomination and even the Nobel Peace Prize?

I agree that many of them have yes.

this is in actual fact recognition by the International Community that these Greek Islanders have gone over and beyond all other Schengen Countries which are not being recognized in the same manner, in fact they are criticized as behaving differently to the Greeks.

I believe it is recognition that it is an event that is happening in Greece and that is not happening in any other Schengen state, primarily because of geography. I do not believe that people who have been reported as supporting this campaign, like Desmond Tutu to give one example, are doing so because they are saying look at how much better Greeks and Greece is behaving towards refugees compared with other EU member states. I think they are supporting recognising the extra ordinary compassion and humanity show by ordinary people faced with an extra ordinary situation, that happens to be occurring in a specify area, the Greek Islands.

I have some more questions and expect a clear answer with no waffle.

I am doing my best I hope you will do likewise in return.

Do you also agree, that it is in many cases impossible for Greece to apply Schengen to all refugees because many of them are in fact Stateless? The MSM have not mentioned this detail but the HRW does.

Who are / what is the MSM ? There has always been stateless immigrants and there are procedures for how they should be handled for all countries not just Schengen members. I do not understand what you mean by it is impossible to 'apply schengen' to migrant that is stateless ?

Do you also agree, that it is practically impossible for Greece to offer the support and the humanitarian aid to all these Syrian Refugees which have overwhelmed the country beyond the capacity of the available resources it has to offer them by way of food, shelter, medical help, let alone look at their paperwork which many don't have and take their finger prints etc? If 900,000 refugees came through Lesbos, then I am sure the 10 cops on Lesbos will be taking fingerprints for the next 5 years non stop.

Almost all the migrants arriving in the EU via Greece are travelling on to other EU member states. No one that I am aware of in the EU is saying that all migrants arriving in Greece must stay in Greece. Quite the opposite in fact. However every and any migrant arriving into the EU has to be, at some point 'processed' , has to be recorded as having enter, evaluated and recorded in terms of status (refugee, economic migrant, stateless person etc etc). That has to happen and it is logical that it happen first and foremost at the place where they first enter. No one is denying that the numbers in 2015 have been unprecedented, that the burden these unprecedented numbers create has in turn created unprecedented challenges and disproportionately so on Greece more than any other member of the EU. However this does not mean that processing such migrants can or sahould just be 'written off'.

Do you also agree, that the current Greek Government, being a Socialist one of the far left, probably has more compassion for these refugees than ANY of the Schengen Zone members but just doesn't have the available resources without critical assistance from overseas Governments, the EU and Schengen.

No.

I watched a documentary where an Australian Volunteer Doctor was showing camera crews examples of Greek Elderly pensioners changing nappies of Syrian Children, feeding them milk, and even offering them shelter in their own homes.

Around 1 million refugees have passed through Greece in 2015, the vast majority of which have move through it to seek to settle in other EU member states. In the same period maybe 3.5 million have arrived in Turkey and over 2 million remain in Turkey and have not (yet) sought to move on to Europe. Do you really think that would have been no similar acts in Turkey, regardless of of they have been widely reported ot not or you have seen such reports yourself ?

This is aside from the fact that Greek Fishermen and the Coastguard have probably saved the lives of hundreds of Syrians that could have drowned from Turkish people smugglers and profiteers on their death trap leaking dinghies.

This is where I totally disagree with you. This idea that ALL those seeking to profit from the desperate plight of these refugees are Turkish and that the only 'fishermen' or 'coast guards' that saved such are Greek. This to me is just not credible and NOT simply because the 'good' in this narrative are Greek and the 'bad' are Turkish. I sincerely believe I would refute a similar narrative if the 'good' were Turkish and the 'bad' were Greek. I have no doubt that there have been extra ordinary acts of compassion, humanity and bravery from Greeks AND Turks (and other nationalities besides), just as have no doubt that there will have been abhorrent attempts to exploit these peoples suffering by Greeks AND Turks (and other nationalities besides).

So I have a question for you and no doubt I will be branded and 'anti Greek' propagandist for even asking it but in the face of what I am being asked I feel it is a valid question.

Do you know that from 2011, long before this recent crisis began, through to today that, following judgments by the ECJ and ECHR, Dublin transfers back to Greece by other EU member states have been suspended as the persistent deficiencies on the Greek asylum system made doing so a violation of an individual's fundamental rights ?

[Paphitis]

this is in actual fact recognition by the International Community that these Greek Islanders have gone over and beyond all other Schengen Countries which are not being recognized in the same manner, in fact they are criticized as behaving differently to the Greeks.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htmI believe it is recognition that it is an event that is happening in Greece and that is not happening in any other Schengen state, primarily because of geography. I do not believe that people who have been reported as supporting this campaign, like Desmond Tutu to give one example, are doing so because they are saying look at how much better Greeks and Greece is behaving towards refugees compared with other EU member states. I think they are supporting recognising the extra ordinary compassion and humanity show by ordinary people faced with an extra ordinary situation, that happens to be occurring in a specify area, the Greek Islands. [/quote]

I disagree with that Erolz. I have enough information to believe that Greece has actually gone over and beyond and that it has outdone so many countries which I might add are in a much better position than Greece is.

Do you also agree, that it is in many cases impossible for Greece to apply Schengen to all refugees because many of them are in fact Stateless? The MSM have not mentioned this detail but the HRW does.

Who are / what is the MSM ? There has always been stateless immigrants and there are procedures for how they should be handled for all countries not just Schengen members. I do not understand what you mean by it is impossible to 'apply schengen' to migrant that is stateless ?

MSM = Mainstream media.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm

Do you also agree, that it is practically impossible for Greece to offer the support and the humanitarian aid to all these Syrian Refugees which have overwhelmed the country beyond the capacity of the available resources it has to offer them by way of food, shelter, medical help, let alone look at their paperwork which many don't have and take their finger prints etc? If 900,000 refugees came through Lesbos, then I am sure the 10 cops on Lesbos will be taking fingerprints for the next 5 years non stop.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htmAlmost all the migrants arriving in the EU via Greece are travelling on to other EU member states. No one that I am aware of in the EU is saying that all migrants arriving in Greece must stay in Greece. Quite the opposite in fact. However every and any migrant arriving into the EU has to be, at some point 'processed' , has to be recorded as having enter, evaluated and recorded in terms of status (refugee, economic migrant, stateless person etc etc). That has to happen and it is logical that it happen first and foremost at the place where they first enter. No one is denying that the numbers in 2015 have been unprecedented, that the burden these unprecedented numbers create has in turn created unprecedented challenges and disproportionately so on Greece more than any other member of the EU. However this does not mean that processing such migrants can or sahould just be 'written off'. [/quote]

Do you understand and accept that the Greek Governments efforts in the Aegean would be costly and we are talking about a country now that is finding it incredibly difficult to maintain its Social monetary obligations to its own people?

Greece got inundated by 900,000 refugees, that's 10% of its population. I think they are doing the best they can.

Do you also agree, that the current Greek Government, being a Socialist one of the far left, probably has more compassion for these refugees than ANY of the Schengen Zone members but just doesn't have the available resources without critical assistance from overseas Governments, the EU and Schengen.

No.

well it does unfortunately Erolz. It's probably one of the most socially compassionate Government's on the planet. The Syrians are also a subject that appears very dear to them.

I watched a documentary where an Australian Volunteer Doctor was showing camera crews examples of Greek Elderly pensioners changing nappies of Syrian Children, feeding them milk, and even offering them shelter in their own homes.

Around 1 million refugees have passed through Greece in 2015, the vast majority of which have move through it to seek to settle in other EU member states. In the same period maybe 3.5 million have arrived in Turkey and over 2 million remain in Turkey and have not (yet) sought to move on to Europe. Do you really think that would have been no similar acts in Turkey, regardless of of they have been widely reported ot not or you have seen such reports yourself ?

Sure, But how can you expect a country of 10 million with serious financial issues to be able to cope with this?

This is aside from the fact that Greek Fishermen and the Coastguard have probably saved the lives of hundreds of Syrians that could have drowned from Turkish people smugglers and profiteers on their death trap leaking dinghies.

This is where I totally disagree with you. This idea that ALL those seeking to profit from the desperate plight of these refugees are Turkish and that the only 'fishermen' or 'coast guards' that saved such are Greek. This to me is just not credible and NOT simply because the 'good' in this narrative are Greek and the 'bad' are Turkish. I sincerely believe I would refute a similar narrative if the 'good' were Turkish and the 'bad' were Greek. I have no doubt that there have been extra ordinary acts of compassion, humanity and bravery from Greeks AND Turks (and other nationalities besides), just as have no doubt that there will have been abhorrent attempts to exploit these peoples suffering by Greeks AND Turks (and other nationalities besides).

Just stating some facts Erolz. The refugees are making the treacherous crossing by paying Turkish fishermen and some other opportunistic profiteers.

So I have a question for you and no doubt I will be branded and 'anti Greek' propagandist for even asking it but in the face of what I am being asked I feel it is a valid question.

Do you know that from 2011, long before this recent crisis began, through to today that, following judgments by the ECJ and ECHR, Dublin transfers back to Greece by other EU member states have been suspended as the persistent deficiencies on the Greek asylum system made doing so a violation of an individual's fundamental rights ?

Sure I accept that. It's not a problem if there are deficiencies.

Australia has a rap sheet that I think this forum will struggle to fill as we would run out of space on the server. We are talking about some major alleged HR violations.

But Greece has a Socialist Government, and whilst they can't be expected to change things overnight, they are doing their best and have a platform that is very respectful and considerate towards Syrian refugees, mores-so than many Schengen countries.

[erolz66]

I disagree with that Erolz. I have enough information to believe that Greece has actually gone over and beyond and that it has outdone so many countries which I might add are in a much better position than Greece is.

It has 'outdone' other countries in volume because it has / is subjected to greater volume. It has not imo outdone other countries in 'degree'. It has not 'outdone' other EU members in terms of the number of asylum seekers it has granted rights to remain in Greece to, relative to population for example.

asylumbypop.JPG

(as half British I do note, with some shame, how even worse the UK is in this regard - but most other countries are 'better')

Do you understand and accept that the Greek Governments efforts in the Aegean would be costly and we are talking about a country now that is finding it incredibly difficult to maintain its Social monetary obligations to its own people?

The cost in dealing with the crisis is on an unprecedented scale as the crisis itself is on an unprecedented scale. However the EU IS providing funds and assistance in many forms and ways in recognition of this.

Greece got inundated by 900,000 refugees, that's 10% of its population. I think they are doing the best they can.

And the EU commission is of the view that actually, despite the unique circumstances, they could and in fact have to do more, if Schengen is to continue to operate as it did. I personally do not believe they have come to such a view lightly, or because they are 'anti Greek' or because they just want to hide their own deficiencies.

well it does unfortunately Erolz. It's probably one of the most socially compassionate Government's on the planet. The Syrians are also a subject that appears very dear to them.

They are certainly one of the most left wing. However words are easy, actions are harder. Actions count. The Czech Republic, a country with lower GDP per head of population took the action of suspending Dublin agreements on 2 September 2015 in response to the crisis. That to me is action.

Sure, But how can you expect a country of 10 million with serious financial issues to be able to cope with this?

Alone, I dont. Nor does the EU. As much as the EU has and is criticising Greece for failures it is also doing much and more to aid and assist and help Greece address such.

Just stating some facts Erolz. The refugees are making the treacherous crossing by paying Turkish fishermen and some other opportunistic profiteers.

It is a fact that some of those that are seeking to profit from refugee suffering are Turkish. It is not a fact that ALL of them that are doing so are Turkish, or that not a single Greek has or is doing so.

But Greece has a Socialist Government, and whilst they can't be expected to change things overnight, they are doing their best and have a platform that is very respectful and considerate towards Syrian refugees, mores-so than many Schengen countries.

I believe Syriza as the majority party of a ruling coalition including ANEL (not so socialist I believe ?) has 'good intentions' with regards to refugees better than some ruling parties (coalition or single parties) in some EU states and similar to those in other states. But you know what they say about good intentions and roads to hell I assume ? Like so many hard left parties, and I say this as someone who on voting record would be considered on the left themselves, they also have a tendency to place dogma and ideology ahead of practicality to a degree that in turn undermines their ability to effect real change effectively. Syriza is not Greece. There was Greece before Syriza came to power and will Greece after it looses power. Syriza may in the future manage to effect changes in how Greece behaves towards refugees but to date it has not had much impact. To compare how well Greece is doing with regards to refugees based on what the good intentions of Syriza may lead to in the future compared to how other EU members are actually doing today is not comparing apples with apples imo.

[Paphitis]

I disagree with that Erolz. I have enough information to believe that Greece has actually gone over and beyond and that it has outdone so many countries which I might add are in a much better position than Greece is.

It has 'outdone' other countries in volume because it has / is subjected to greater volume. It has not imo outdone other countries in 'degree'. It has not 'outdone' other EU members in terms of the number of asylum seekers it has granted rights to remain in Greece to, relative to population for example.

They are not applying for asylum in Greece. That's the reason for this.

Greece is just a transit country for them. I addition it can't afford to grant asylum. We are talking about a country with 26% unemployment and which almost defaulted on Social Security payments and Public Sector salaries only a short time ago.

I think what the are doing to this point is HUGE and the international community is recognizing them for it.

asylumbypop.JPG

(as half British I do note, with some shame, how even worse the UK is in this regard - but most other countries are 'better')

Not just that, but when you look at it and analyse it very carefuly, Greece is doing particularly well, and is indeed outdoing most other countries because I am not hearing all the nonsense come from Greece in terms of racism and intolerance towards the Syrians. On the contrary, the Greeks have opened their homes and it has been noticed by those who want to notice.

Do you understand and accept that the Greek Governments efforts in the Aegean would be costly and we are talking about a country now that is finding it incredibly difficult to maintain its Social monetary obligations to its own people?

The cost in dealing with the crisis is on an unprecedented scale as the crisis itself is on an unprecedented scale. However the EU IS providing funds and assistance in many forms and ways in recognition of this.

Nonsense, even FRONTEX has abandoned Greece, because they get fired upon by the Turkish Coastguard.

Greece got inundated by 900,000 refugees, that's 10% of its population. I think they are doing the best they can.

And the EU commission is of the view that actually, despite the unique circumstances, they could and in fact have to do more, if Schengen is to continue to operate as it did. I personally do not believe they have come to such a view lightly, or because they are 'anti Greek' or because they just want to hide their own deficiencies.

Really, well why don't they come to Greece and show the Greeks how its done, and whilst they're at it, why doesn't Greece send them the bill which they can't afford.

well it does unfortunately Erolz. It's probably one of the most socially compassionate Government's on the planet. The Syrians are also a subject that appears very dear to them.

They are certainly one of the most left wing. However words are easy, actions are harder. Actions count. The Czech Republic, a country with lower GDP per head of population took the action of suspending Dublin agreements on 2 September 2015 in response to the crisis. That to me is action.

You also need money to deliver actions mate. I mentioned to you the fact that there are Greek patients in Greek Hospitals going without Chemo, Penicillin and antibiotics because the Health System can't deliver.

Sure, But how can you expect a country of 10 million with serious financial issues to be able to cope with this?

Alone, I dont. Nor does the EU. As much as the EU has and is criticising Greece for failures it is also doing much and more to aid and assist and help Greece address such.

Yes action requires money.

But you should agree, the intention is certainly there, whenever the Greek Navy or Coast Guard send their ships and actually save lives.

Just stating some facts Erolz. The refugees are making the treacherous crossing by paying Turkish fishermen and some other opportunistic profiteers.

It is a fact that some of those that are seeking to profit from refugee suffering are Turkish. It is not a fact that ALL of them that are doing so are Turkish, or that not a single Greek has or is doing so.

They are certainly all being transported to the Greek Islands from Turkish Fishermen and smugglers on the Turkish Side of the border for 800 USD per person. The Greeks won't accept this blood money.

But Greece has a Socialist Government, and whilst they can't be expected to change things overnight, they are doing their best and have a platform that is very respectful and considerate towards Syrian refugees, mores-so than many Schengen countries.

I believe Syriza as the majority party of a ruling coalition including ANEL (not so socialist I believe ?) has 'good intentions' with regards to refugees better than some ruling parties (coalition or single parties) in some EU states and similar to those in other states. But you know what they say about good intentions and roads to hell I assume ? Like so many hard left parties, and I say this as someone who on voting record would be considered on the left themselves, they also have a tendency to place dogma and ideology ahead of practicality to a degree that in turn undermines their ability to effect real change effectively. Syriza is not Greece. There was Greece before Syriza came to power and will Greece after it looses power. Syriza may in the future manage to effect changes in how Greece behaves towards refugees but to date it has not had much impact. To compare how well Greece is doing with regards to refugees based on what the good intentions of Syriza may lead to in the future compared to how other EU members are actually doing today is not comparing apples with apples imo.

Sure but how you can expect Greece and accuse Greece of not delivering is beyond me. All I can derive are some technical issues, which by the way I would expect when you are inundated with over a million refugees. There wouldn't be many countries that could cope with this. It would even challenge the Americans I am sure let alone a country which can't afford to stock medicine into its hospitals.

But, and I believe this 100%, Greece has shown an element of compassion and tolerance towards these Syrian Refugees which I am afraid to say has gone beyond much richer countries of Schengen. The way Greece has handled the crisis in comparison to other countries is something all Greeks should be very proud of.

That is why, there are nearly a million signatures requesting Greece's nomination for the Nobel Peace prize. And for me they are worthy Nobel Peace Prize contenders and probably deserve to get it.