Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

IMO the HUMAN RIGHTS of those refugees super exceed and rank No1 in priority over any formalities required by Schengen.
The mere fact that they try to stigmatize Greece for not "performing very well" in trying to hide their true intentions (of actually not wanting the refugees) and caring less for their human rights is just a hypocritical behavior from the EU itself.
Unfortunately you and Erolz used this argument so many times in these discussions that looks like you take it for granted that it is right.
It CANNOT stand as an argument unless you subscribe to EU's hypocritical behavior.
Well, DO YOU?

I had told myself that I would not participate in this thread, given the preposterous and childish nature of the 'topic'. However you have directly 'called me out' and in relation to an entirely different subject so I will respond.

All the countries in the EU, Greece included, have always restricted immigration into their countries. Always. Never has any country simply 'thrown open it's doors'. No previous crisis leading to mass immigration into European countries has been met with a 'throwing open of doors' nor would the populations of those countries ever agree to such, much as I personally regret this. I do not think the EU is trying to 'stigmatize' Greece in order to hide it own hypocrisy at all. I think it is saying with regards to Schengen, that such a system can only work if the procedures necessary for it to work are carried out effectively. Greece is the country most at pressure from this, not because millions of refugees have turned up on its boarders because they think Greeks will treat them better and will let them in more readily that other EU states but because they are the geographically closest entry point to the EU in general. I think if geographically Italy and Greece were the other way round, then most likely this call for recognition of ordinary people of Greece would be one of people from Italy, just as the chances are that if any member state was failing to be able to implement it's schengen obligations it would be Italy. If geographically Italy was the closest entry point and Greece only had internal borders, some with Italy, it too would have looked to its option with regard to re imposing controls temporarily in the face of the scale of this crisis.

In my view there is undoubtedly a rank hypocrisy at the core of the 'western developed' worlds attitude to immigration and always has been long before this recent crisis and that it is not one that Greece is not guilty of and other EU members are, it is one that they have all been and are guilty off. Hypocrisy around the imposition of a global capitalistic system, by force and other means, on an impoverished 'rest of the world' whilst maintaining strict controls on the free movement of labour. This is stuff that Adam Smith wrote about 1700's. I personally, unlike almost certainly the majority in ALL EU countries (and other 'wealthy nations') would actually welcome a 'throwing open of doors' re immigration and not just a response to this specific latest crisis and not just to those directly fleeing war and persecution but also 'economic migrants' fleeing abject poverty.

[GreekIslandGirl]

All the countries in the EU, Greece included, have always restricted immigration into their countries.

Oh, should we be more like Turkey and the rest of the Middle East and erm .... erm ... take them and pass them on as pawns, en masse, to destroy neighbours?

EU countries mostly try and restrict numbers because they treat people as humans (not cattle) and they have to ensure the infrastructure is there to assist!

[Pyrpolizer]

IMO the HUMAN RIGHTS of those refugees super exceed and rank No1 in priority over any formalities required by Schengen.
The mere fact that they try to stigmatize Greece for not "performing very well" in trying to hide their true intentions (of actually not wanting the refugees) and caring less for their human rights is just a hypocritical behavior from the EU itself.
Unfortunately you and Erolz used this argument so many times in these discussions that looks like you take it for granted that it is right.
It CANNOT stand as an argument unless you subscribe to EU's hypocritical behavior.
Well, DO YOU?

I had told myself that I would not participate in this thread, given the preposterous and childish nature of the 'topic'. However you have directly 'called me out' and in relation to an entirely different subject so I will respond.

All the countries in the EU, Greece included, have always restricted immigration into their countries. Always. Never has any country simply 'thrown open it's doors'. No previous crisis leading to mass immigration into European countries has been met with a 'throwing open of doors' nor would the populations of those countries ever agree to such, much as I personally regret this. I do not think the EU is trying to 'stigmatize' Greece in order to hide it own hypocrisy at all. I think it is saying with regards to Schengen, that such a system can only work if the procedures necessary for it to work are carried out effectively. Greece is the country most at pressure from this, not because millions of refugees have turned up on its boarders because they think Greeks will treat them better and will let them in more readily that other EU states but because they are the geographically closest entry point to the EU in general. I think if geographically Italy and Greece were the other way round, then most likely this call for recognition of ordinary people of Greece would be one of people from Italy, just as the chances are that if any member state was failing to be able to implement it's schengen obligations it would be Italy. If geographically Italy was the closest entry point and Greece only had internal borders, some with Italy, it too would have looked to its option with regard to re imposing controls temporarily in the face of the scale of this crisis.

In my view there is undoubtedly a rank hypocrisy at the core of the 'western developed' worlds attitude to immigration and always has been long before this recent crisis and that it is not one that Greece is not guilty of and other EU members are, it is one that they have all been and are guilty off. Hypocrisy around the imposition of a global capitalistic system, by force and other means, on an impoverished 'rest of the world' whilst maintaining strict controls on the free movement of labour. This is stuff that Adam Smith wrote about 1700's. I personally, unlike almost certainly the majority in ALL EU countries (and other 'wealthy nations') would actually welcome a 'throwing open of doors' re immigration and not just a response to this specific latest crisis and not just to those directly fleeing war and persecution but also 'economic migrants' fleeing abject poverty.

Forget about Schengen. The refugees have RIGHTS as per UN Charta, that override Schengen. FULLSTOP.

[erolz66]

Forget about Schengen. The refugees have RIGHTS as per UN Charta, that override Schengen. FULLSTOP.

Schengen is not incompatible with international and UN obligations on states re migrants and migrants human rights. Those Schengen countries that have reapplied boarder controls are not doing so because doing so allows them to ignore the rights of migrants and UN obligations. States have and always have had a right to control and refuse those migrants that are deemed to be 'economic migrants' for example. The rights of refugees can not be effectively protected without proper boarder controls. Greece has not made a decision to forgo boarder controls because it believes doing so is necessary under current conditions to ensure the human rights of refugees. Saying that is not 'picking' on Greece, no country has done so.

If you really want to look for a state that did unilaterally decide, under no legal obligation to do so, to modify it's immigration policies in the face of this crisis, then you have to look at Germany's suspension of the Dublin agreement I would suggest.

[erolz66]

Oh, should we be more like Turkey and the rest of the Middle East and erm .... erm ... take them and pass them on as pawns, en masse, to destroy neighbours?

You think the vast majority of those have entered the EU via Greece have not been 'passed on' ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911

More than a million migrants and refugees crossed into Europe in 2015, sparking a crisis as countries struggle to cope with the influx, and creating division in the EU over how best to deal with resettling people.

arrivals.JPG

Although not all of those arriving claim asylum, more than 942,400 people have done so in the EU, according to monthly figures from the EU statistics agency, Eurostat.

asylum.JPG

asylumbypop.JPG

[erolz66]

Forget about Schengen. The refugees have RIGHTS as per UN Charta, that override Schengen. FULLSTOP.

Whilst Schengen does in and of itself not infringe on refugee human rights, the returning of asylum seekers to the country they first enter the EU, should they travel onto another EU state, under the terms of the dublin agreements, was found by the ECHR to be an infringement of that asylum seekers human rights specifically if they were to be returned to Greece, despite the Dublin agreement. Leading to the suspension of Dublin transfers back to Greece way back in 2011 and it remains suspended for such transfers today.

If I really had an agenda of just attacking and vilifying Greece re refugees, this would be a much more effective basis on which to do so.

http://www.asylumlawdatabase.eu/en/cont ... no-3069609

[Pyrpolizer]

Forget about Schengen. The refugees have RIGHTS as per UN Charta, that override Schengen. FULLSTOP.

Whilst Schengen does in and of itself not infringe on refugee human rights, the returning of asylum seekers to the country they first enter the EU, should they travel onto another EU state, under the terms of the dublin agreements, was found by the ECHR to be an infringement of that asylum seekers human rights specifically if they were to be returned to Greece, despite the Dublin agreement. Leading to the suspension of Dublin transfers back to Greece way back in 2011 and it remains suspended for such transfers today.

If I really had an agenda of just attacking and vilifying Greece re refugees, this would be a much more effective basis on which to do so.

http://www.asylumlawdatabase.eu/en/cont ... no-3069609

I never said you had an agenda. All I said was that Schengen formalities cannot stand as an argument, because what happens in practice is an effort to use Schengen as a pretext to deny or derail or delay the effective delivery of human rights to those refugees at a time that a large number of them are drowning in the sea.

I'm wondering if those hypocrites in the EU still require Greece to check the passports or IDs or birth certificates of those who we were pulled out of the sea half dead.

[erolz66]

I'm wondering if those hypocrites in the EU still require Greece to check the passports or IDs or birth certificates of those who we were pulled out of the sea half dead.

Yes they do, for if there are is no processing of these people how can it be established what rights such people have in order that those right can be protected under the law, local, EU and international ?

If 50 people turn up on the shores of the RoC (or the green line for that matter), should the RoC just treat them all as valid asylum seekers without doing any checks to establish where they have come from and why and if they indeed do have a valid claim to asylum or not ? If 500 turn up ? 5000 ? 50,000 ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

If I really had an agenda of just attacking and vilifying Greece re refugees, this would be a much more effective basis on which to do so.

http://www.asylumlawdatabase.eu/en/cont ... no-3069609

Well done for an attempt at stealth. You've dug out another attack.

That 'context' is the least a reasonable human being would consider before vilifying Greece on any aspect of immigration. Do we have a reasonable person in erolz when it comes to Greece? Methinks not


Some extracts that place emphasis on present context:

European Union immigration policy, including the Dublin Regulation does not reflect the present realities or do justice to the disproportionate burden that falls to the Greek immigration authorities. He states there is a clear need for a comprehensive reconsideration of the existing European Legal Regime, which should take into account the particular needs & constraints of Greece.

Because migrants are human too, they will do/say anything to prevent deportation.

He believes this leaves open a legal loophole and amounts to a petitio principii in such a situation to invoke Article 46 in order to prevent deportation.

Judge Sajo finds that the applicant cannot be regarded as a victim in the sense of Article 34 as far as his conditions of stay in Greece are concerned and with regard to the deficiencies in the asylum procedure there.

Regarding the specificities of the case, Judge Sajo holds that the applicant by his own actions failed to co-operate with the Greek immigration system.

This is like blaming the doctors and nurses (Greece) when there is an outbreak of some disease at a hospital (EU) whose managers have failed to provide the medicines and equipment (Frontex etc).

[erolz66]

Well done for an attempt at stealth.

I will not debate with you GiG as to what the ECHR ruling I linked to does or does mean or say, to do so is pointless. Anyone is free to read it and make their own mind up.

It is a fact that "Since 2011, following judgments by the ECJ and ECHR, Dublin transfers back to Greece have been suspended as the persistent deficiencies on the Greek asylum system made doing so a violation of an individual's fundamental rights."

The context as to why I have pointed this out was in response Pyrpolizer talking about how the EU insisting that Greece process those arriving there as per the requirements of the Schengen agreements was an attempt to deny those arriving their human rights and that by saying that Greece was 'not performing very well' re implementation of schengen obligations was motivated by the rest of the EU wanting to hide that they did not care for the human rights of such people.

Go ahead and use all your tricks and techniques and games with regards to this ECHR judgment, the consequences of which are still enforce to today, to distort and deny and twist what it actually says and found to suit your need to exonerate Greece of any censure for anything, ever. I have no interest in such games. None of it will change reality of that ruling, which anyone can judge for themselves.