Cyprus-Forum.com

[DrCyprus]

Fortunately, Macedonia has taken the lead to save the EU's butt by closing their borders with Greece to stop the flow of refugees from Turkey to the rest of Europe via Greece.

Who the FUCK are you to call a bunch of Albanobulgarians "Macedonians" you antigreek trash.

[MR-from-NG]

Fortunately, Macedonia has taken the lead to save the EU's butt by closing their borders with Greece to stop the flow of refugees from Turkey to the rest of Europe via Greece.

Who the FUCK are you to call a bunch of Albanobulgarians "Macedonians" you antigreek trash.

Antigreek? Kikapolous antigreek? He is more Greek than you, Sotos, B25 and GIG put together

[repulsewarrior]

...indeed, what with the crisis as big as it is, news sources are also playing it loose with the word, Macedonia. I would keep my powder dry Dr. now is not the time to draw attention to what is in comparison rather trivial. Kikapu surely recognises this mistake, it is noted by all of us (so that we will be more vigilent with our own writing), although your emotions are of no help. More to the point on a more relevant topic to all of us, if you continue to pick sides solely based on a person's ethnicity, Cyprus is surely lost. As has been said, and there are many who will support the claim, Kikapu is a Turk, but he is no "Turk"; let's be clear.

...as for antigreek, "Greeks", if it means i am antigreek, are trash too.

...as for that place where the Albanese, differentiate themselves from Albanians, a rose smells rotten when it rots, whether you call it a rose or not.

[Kikapu]

Some thoughts, specifically re Kikapu posts

and do away with the Schengen agreement for the time being,

Doing away with the Schengen agreement even for the 'time being' is I suggest a 'big deal'. Not in the sense that Europe can not function without Schengen, clearly it can and could. However it is integral to the drive towards ever greater federalisation of the EU. Scrapping it, even temporarily, delivers a huge blow to both the process and ideal of ever greater federalisation of the EU. In pretty much the same way that an imposition of border controls within and between US states, even temporarily, would deliver a massive blow to the idea of a federal USA. Schenghen is breaking down under the burden of this unprecedented crisis, but for those who are invested in the steady evolution of the EU towards a united states of Europe, this really is a 'big deal' and absolutely an option of 'no other resort'. Of course for those who the increasing evolution of the EU into the USE is an anathema, this break down of Schengen is desirable.

Erolz, Europe does not need to be, or even can be in the same federation level as the USA. It is simply not possible to replicate the USA model to Europe, the differences being language, culture, fiscal policies and so on. Yes, it is great that we can travel within the Schengen without having to show passports/ID cards, but customs inspections are still in place, at least that is the case in Switzerland anyway, where as, there are no customs inspections between the states in the USA for private individuals. The USA does however do have state-line/border control on commercial traffic where goods are documented and checked by some states, if they choose to do it.

at which time the refugees Turkey sending to the EU will not be able to go any further than Greece perhaps. Once the refugees realize Greece is the furthers they will be able to travel to, they will rather stay in Turkey

Such would decrease flows but it would not end them. One only has to look at the camps in Calais to see that even with a 'closed border' and no ability of those migrants there to go any further than France, migrants still gather there and many still take inordinate risk to move from there to the UK. Also even if the borders out from Greece could be and are effectively closed in totality, this would not end any possible route for a migrant who is a genuine refugee to be able to make it to say German, it would just delay their ability to do that by around 5 years, A 'genuine refugee' (by current legal standards - I personally hate term 'genuine' by these standards) that reaches Greece and who obtains that status there , will then be on the path to Citizenship, that takes around 5 years. Once they reach this end gaol they can move to and live and work in any EU country of their choice.

A 'genuine' refugee that arrives in Greece from Turkey can legally be returned Turkey, only so long as the human rights of that refugee are respected in Turkey. If by will (of Turkey) or not, those rights are found by a suitable court with suitable jurisdiction (ECHR, or ECJ) then no EU member will legally be able to return such genuine refugees to Turkey. If those that reach Greece are unable to move on to other EU countries until they gain full citizenship and if (this is not the case currently but could easily become so) Greece becomes unable to return them to Turkey (because a court with jurisdiction has deemed doing so would be an infringement of their human rights), this then will place a massive burden those EU countries with 'external borders' geographically on the 'routes' migrants are taking - meaning Greece mostly but also to a lesser degree, Italy and others.

Well, it seems like the EU and Turkey are able to do away with the International laws regarding the protection of the refugees rights to remain in at any EU country and ask for Asylum with the recent possible agreement to ship the refugees back to Turkey, a move that can be made either unilaterally or bi-laterally. So much for the "rule of Law", and that being the case, as I had stated on another thread on this subject, what is to stop the EU from changing the status of these "genuine refugees" to simply calling them "economic refugees/migrants" who seems to have much less rights and can be returned to their homeland much easily than "refugees", which to me, the description of "economic refugees/migrants" is far more appropriate than calling them "refugees", considering the fact, that they are coming directly from Turkey to Greece and not directly from Syria/Iraq. Syria/Iraq are war torn counties where fleeing people are refugees, but those fleeing from Turkey are simply economic refugees/migrants. If Turkey and the EU can trade the "refugees" already in Greece back and forth like sacks of potatoes despite International laws, then I can't see the EU just not see these people as "economic refugees/migrants" and treat them as Illegal Aliens arriving illegally to Greece, which they will have far less rights than genuine refugees.

Turkey thinks they now have the upper hand for the EU to meet their demands in opening more EU chapters, Visa free travel to the Turks and so on. Once the EU closes it's borders withing the EU, Turkey will then lose it's blackmailing power over the EU, at which time, Turkey can kiss off the 3.2 Billion Euros, Visa free travel for the Turks in the EU as well as opening more chapters, other than the ones the EU may have already agreed to open.

As far as I can see it the 'blackmail power' (leverage) Turkey has is to actually create or allow to be created by inaction a situation in Turkey whereby the human rights of genuine refugees are not respected, to a degree that a court like the ECHR or ECJ would have no option but to rule this is the case - with the result of prohibiting any legal return of such people to Turkey by anyone bound by the jurisdiction of that court. This I believe is what the 3billion the EU is offering to Turkey is intended to achieve, ensuring that the human rights of genuine refugees within Turkey are respected, on the basis that the costs of not achieving will ultimately be much higher for the EU as a whole (and disproportionately so on Greece within the EU for that matter).

If the EU determines that these people are "economic refugees/migrants", then it is a whole new ball game, where people sent back to Turkey, one way or another, which mine was to put them on small boats at Greek Islands close to Turkish coast for them to arrive safely back to Turkey where they had come from in the first place. Their treatment in Turkey will be between themselves and Turkey and not with the EU. They can take their case to the ECHR or ECJ if they wish to make any complaints regarding their treatments by Turkey. Turkey after all invited these people to come to Turkey in the first place, so they came, just like Germany invited 1 million "refugees" and they too came, but now there is no longer an invitation for them to come to the EU. Now Turkey has also shut their border and are keeping the refugees from Syria on the Syrian side of the border. Yes the EU can help these people by giving money, food and shelter, as well as take refugees to the EU in a orderly manner, but not by being blackmailed by Turkey.