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[Kikapu]

And as to warships, Article 20:

In time of war, Turkey being belligerent, the provisions of Articles 10 to 18 shall not be applicable; the passage of warships shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government.

But Russia is not at war with Turkey, and is not about to attack Turkey on Turkish sovereign , therefore Turkey cannot deny Russian ships access through the straits. Anything that happens to Turkish planes or any Turkish ground troops in Syria by Russia is a separate matter all together. If Turkey want's to declare war on Russia in order to have the excuse to close the straits, then let Turkey declare war on Russia and lets see what happens.

[GreekIslandGirl]

That treaty was breached by Turkey as soon as it was signed and it's about to be shredded by Russia long before Turkey aims to impose more restrictions with the building of that Kanal.

All very timely and the only solution is for Russia to take that region and hand it back to Greece!

[erolz66]

.....to take that region and hand it back to Greece!

Hand it back to the Romans you mean ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

.....to take that region and hand it back to Greece!

Hand it back to the Romans you mean ?

Oh, you prefer the Greek-loving Romans that followed in our footsteps?

[Sotos]

gt.jpg

Seems about right.

[Tim Drayton]

And as to warships, Article 20:

In time of war, Turkey being belligerent, the provisions of Articles 10 to 18 shall not be applicable; the passage of warships shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government.

But Russia is not at war with Turkey, and is not about to attack Turkey on Turkish sovereign , therefore Turkey cannot deny Russian ships access through the straits. Anything that happens to Turkish planes or any Turkish ground troops in Syria by Russia is a separate matter all together. If Turkey want's to declare war on Russia in order to have the excuse to close the straits, then let Turkey declare war on Russia and lets see what happens.

Sure, but as Boomerang suggests, perhaps the aim was to goad Russia into declaring war so as to be able to invoke these clauses. In any case, from my reading, all that is necessary is for Turkey to be a belligerent in any war, and then it can invoke the above provision (and the one regarding commercial shipping). The problem is that wars in the postmodern world are harder to define, so what counts as being 'time of war' and having 'belligerent' status?

[Get Real!]

There’s no point in discussing the legalities of the straights because Turkey is a country neck-deep in illegalities while hiding under NATO’s skirt because that’s how America allows Turkey; and a few other rogue states, to be.

What’s important is that Turkey is inching closer and closer to Russia’s RED LINE when Russia will have no option but make some drastic decision.

[erolz66]

Oh, you prefer the Greek-loving Romans that followed in our footsteps?

[Get Real!]

Oh, you prefer the Greek-loving Romans that followed in our footsteps?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JdCyyVeWW0[/youtube]

Hardly the time or thread to bring all that up Erol… try to stick with what the rest of the world is concentrating on.

[Paphitis]

Turkey shooting down the Russian jet is all beginning to make sense now.

I'll give you my analysis when I have time. All I can say right now is, Turkey took the bait and fell into the long awaited American's trap!

Here is my take on the shooting down of the Russian jet by Turkey.

I do believe it was a deliberate act by Turkey to shoot down the jet, almost laying and waiting for the jet, on the orders from the USA. Turks only saw the beneficial side of shooting the jet down by hoping to stop the Russians bombing Turkey's terrorist friends on the ground, along the Syrian-Turkish border. The Turks thought all they had to do was to produce some doctored radio recording about giving the Russian jets amble warnings to clear the area and all will be forgiven and forgotten, all the while when the Russian jets were still in Syrian airspace. The fact that there was no response from the Russian pilots on those recordings makes the recordings fake. Turkey claimed that the Russian jets were in it's airspace for 17 seconds. If true, so the fukcing what? Turkey has never claimed that the jet was shot in the Turkish airspace, therefore, the jet had to have been shot over Syrian airspace, which then makes Turkey taking an illegal action against the Russian jet. No wonder Putin is pissed off at Erdogan, specially if Erdogan assured Putin a week earlier at G20 that the Russian jets in the area would be safe. Putin's statement that "Turkey stabbed them in the back" leads me to believe that Erdogan lied to Putin. Airspace violations are generally handle with much greater care and procedures, including contact with the violating aircraft followed by instructions for them to obey, visual confirmation who the offenders are and so on.

So where do the Americans come into the picture you may ask? The Americans were getting annoyed by Erdogan bombing the PKK and even perhaps the YPG under the guise of bombing the ISIL, the same ISIL terrorist Turkey has been in bed with for years, or perhaps the YPG told the Americans that if the USA can't stop the Turks from bombing their PKK brothers, that they would stop fighting the ISIS on behalf of the Americans, so the Americans set Turkey up to shoot down the Russian jet, knowing full well that the Russian will be pissed off big time and take measures to stop the Turks operating in the Syrian airspace. The Americans were hoping perhaps that the Russian pilots would be safe upon parachuting, which they were not of course, even being helpless in the air floating back to earth. That's exactly what has happened. Turks will not dare to enter the Syrian airspace to bomb anyone now that the Russians have installed their S-400's and have made the Turkish jets their target. No wonder Turkey announced that their jets will not be entering Syrian airspace, because they know that NATO will not help them if their jets are targeted over the Syrian airspace. Erdogan fell into the American's trap by shooting down the Russian jet and is now crying like a baby that he want to meet with Putin.

Americans have been trying for the last few years to get Turkey into Syria to start the destruction of Turkey, but Turkey never took the bait, but finally, they now did and will pay through the nose. Funny thing is, Turkey has been asking for a "No Fly Zone" along their border with Syria for the last few years. Well, they have finally go it, except, it is their jets which won't be able to fly in these zones. Always be careful what you ask for, because you might not like it if you get it. More crying by Erdogan over not being able to use the Syrian airspace. Now the Kurds in Syria will be able to set up their state and Turkey won't be able to anything about it. This will eventually lead to Turkey's break-up, which will be a good thing for all concerned, including for the Turks. Peace at last in Turkey once the dust settles after it's break-up. As for Cyprus negotiations after the Russian jet shooting, I believe the GCs will not want to have a settlement at this point in time, not when Turkey's ass in the fire with the Russians. They too will want to wait for the dust to settle before going forward with any settelemt with the TCs.

I have a different take on the turks downing the russian plane...
1...Erdogan is playing the nationalistic card to enrich his chances in becoming the ultimate sultan...
2...the yanks want the straights closed to Russia....think about it if there is war scaring from Russia to turkey, turkey will close the straights and NATO will have no option but to guard the straights...

I think you might be onto something here.

I think the Americans might be hoping that Russia declare war on Turkey. So what does America gain. Well as you say, the straights will be closed and NATO will be mobilized.

If this is even remotely correct, then America and NATO are well and truly prepared for a war with Pootin.

Why? Ukraine and Syria.

But if Pootin doesn't night, then what will the Americans do next to force Pootin's hand?

What I find interesting is the fact that NATO have doubled their Rapid Reaction Forces only a couple of weeks before Turkey shot down the plane. Could be a coincidence.?