Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Ethnic minorities exist in most countries and the rights you have as an ethnic minority are the same as theirs.

And in none of those countries (and in 59 Cyprus was not a country) does the ethnic majority say you are not part of the people of this country, your a separate and different people to the majority and native peoples of this country. Yet this is what you are saying to me. The paradox is as clear and glaring as your inability to face it.

Erolz, being different is what makes an ethnic minority what it is. It is part of the definition: "ethnic minority: a ​group of ​people of a ​particular ​race or ​nationality ​living in a ​country or ​area where most ​people are from a different ​race or ​nationality". I am just stating the obvious here: That in Cyprus there is an ethnic majority which are of the Greek ethnicity and an ethnic minority with people of the Turkish ethnicity. I am not saying that you being an ethnic minority means that you don't belong to Cyprus. I am saying that your rights as an ethnic minority should be the same as all other ethnic minorities. And if you want to form a single Cypriot ethnicity which we will all be part of, so there will be no ethnic majorities and ethnic minorities... no problem with me. But that is something which will take time to be created. You can't blame us that a single Cypriot ethnicity doesn't exist when for centuries the Ottoma ns kept as divided. It is not like we could flip a switch in the 50s and from Greeks and Turks become of the "Cypriot ethnicity".

It wasn't the Ottomans kept us divided... to the contrary of this, Ottomans inter-mingled with the local peoples of the regions they ruled... in the first phase by marriage with the women who converted to islam and the second phase, in due course time by it's lingual domination... third phase natural asimilation of the local peoples during the 600 years lasted Ottoman rule... GCs were lucky that they became under Ottoman rule in 16th century, it lasted about 400 years, the last hundred years coincided with the collapse of Ottoman empire and followed by global nationalism movement; stopped Ottomanization of the rest of the Greek Orhodox people... Otherwise, had it started in 14th century, just a bunch of Greek Orthodox people would have remained in Cyprus...

[erolz66]

It would seem GiG that you believe that you can say on page 13 of this thread that the document in question was

A paper prepared for the Ministry of Defence!

and then deny that you said this on page 16 and that doing so does anything but prove your total disregard for the truth.

The UN Mediator to Cyprus that the Ministers were being briefed for with the "British Aims for Cyprus" was Mr Tuomioja. Go on, twist that!

And for the last time, my document quotes were 100% correct and you can lift things from all over the place but it doesn't alter the facts. It was your own quote from Mallinson from which you wrongly inferred knowledge!

Did you say or did you not say

The brief was on "British Aims for Cyprus" to present to various Ministers and the UN Mediator in Cyprus.

Yes or No ? I mean it is absolute FACT that you said it but as that means nothing to you at all lets get it up front here. Is there ANY evidence what so ever to support the claim that you make above that the document D.O. (O) (64) 26 was created to present to the UN mediator in Cyprus as well as to British ministers ? Any evidence at all, in the document itself , in Mallinson's description of the document or anywhere ? On the other hand is it plainly and blatantly obvious that this top secret document most certainly was NOT created in order to be presented to the UN mediator and that this is absolutely clear to anyone who reads the document from a basis of understanding what it actually is rather than scanning it to cherry pick sections that can be presented out of all context to support a propaganda notion.

Do go on showing over and over how you have absolutely no regard for objective undeniable truth. It is not very likely that any regular poster here does not already know this, but there is no harm in making it even more clear.

[Sotos]

I am not saying that you being an ethnic minority means that you don't belong to Cyprus. I am saying that your rights as an ethnic minority should be the same as all other ethnic minorities.

If you are saying to me that despite our obvious differences above and beyond all else is our Cypriotness despite our other differences, that make us a Cypriot people, then fine I have no problem with a status of ethnic minority within such a Cypriot state. However this is not what 'you' said as British Colonial rule was coming to an end. My original assertion was

Cyprus is today divided because Cypriots sought a post colonial Cyprus based not on their commonalities as Cypriots regardless of their ethnic background but ones based on their differences that were mutualy exclusive as such and proved all to willing to use illegal violence and murder against entirely innocent Cypriots in the pursuit of these goals. Cypriots intimidated and murdered Cypriots of their own communities that advocated creating a united Cyprus. Cypriots killed and murdered innocent Cypriots for no other reasons that they were from the 'other' community. No group is more responsible by their choices, their actions and their lack of actions, for the division we have today in Cyprus than Cypriots. One of the many commonalities that many GC and TC share is the tendency to instinctively seek to blame everyone and anyone but themselves for everything and anything.

The choice by GC to pursue enosis after the end of British rule rather than independence, was an example of our collective failure as Cypriots to place being Cypriot despite our differences above and beyond our being GC or TC. Just as Taksim was likewise just such an example. My argument is that this failure to CHOSE to place being Cypriot regardless of other differences ahead of an above our differences as GC and TC is at the core of how we have ended up in the situation we are in today and not continuing to do this into the future is at the core of if we can create a better and different future for all Cypriots or not. My view is that this is something we as Cypriots, all of us, must face up to head on if we are to have any chance of creating a different future. Creating a different future for all Cypriots requires us AS Cypriots to do something differently as far as I am concerned. Blaming 'world powers' or anyone other than ourselves, whilst continuing to fail to chose to recognise our greater commonality as Cypriots than our differences as GC and TC is just not good enough imo.




And if you want to form a single Cypriot ethnicity which we will all be part of, so there will be no ethnic majorities and ethnic minorities... no problem with me. But that is something which will take time to be created. You can't blame us that a single Cypriot ethnicity doesn't exist when for centuries the Ottomans kept as divided. It is not like we could flip a switch in the 50s and from Greeks and Turks become of the "Cypriot ethnicity".

[/quote]

What we (or you) think, do, pursue etc doesn't change anything regarding this issue. The fact that we are an ethnic majority in Cyprus while you are an ethnic minority in Cyprus comes from the simple fact that those in Cyprus that are of Greek ethnicity are far more than those who are of Turkish ethnicity. So I will comment on the other issues you raised in a different post, because they are not related on whether or not TCs are an ethnic minority.

[Sotos]

If you are saying to me that despite our obvious differences above and beyond all else is our Cypriotness despite our other differences, that make us a Cypriot people, then fine I have no problem with a status of ethnic minority within such a Cypriot state. However this is not what 'you' said as British Colonial rule was coming to an end.

Your assumption is that having Cyprus above all else necessarily means that we should want Cyprus to be a separate country. I don't agree with this. Depending on the circumstances we might be better off as part of a greater entity. Most Cypriots, like most other people, are not altruists... what they care most is their own safety, well being and pockets. Yes.. they can make wrong choices, but the intention is always to do what is best for Cyprus and themselves.

[Sotos]

Ethnic minorities exist in most countries and the rights you have as an ethnic minority are the same as theirs.

And in none of those countries (and in 59 Cyprus was not a country) does the ethnic majority say you are not part of the people of this country, your a separate and different people to the majority and native peoples of this country. Yet this is what you are saying to me. The paradox is as clear and glaring as your inability to face it.

Erolz, being different is what makes an ethnic minority what it is. It is part of the definition: "ethnic minority: a ​group of ​people of a ​particular ​race or ​nationality ​living in a ​country or ​area where most ​people are from a different ​race or ​nationality". I am just stating the obvious here: That in Cyprus there is an ethnic majority which are of the Greek ethnicity and an ethnic minority with people of the Turkish ethnicity. I am not saying that you being an ethnic minority means that you don't belong to Cyprus. I am saying that your rights as an ethnic minority should be the same as all other ethnic minorities. And if you want to form a single Cypriot ethnicity which we will all be part of, so there will be no ethnic majorities and ethnic minorities... no problem with me. But that is something which will take time to be created. You can't blame us that a single Cypriot ethnicity doesn't exist when for centuries the Ottoma ns kept as divided. It is not like we could flip a switch in the 50s and from Greeks and Turks become of the "Cypriot ethnicity".

It wasn't the Ottomans kept us divided... to the contrary of this, Ottomans inter-mingled with the local peoples of the regions they ruled... in the first phase by marriage with the women who converted to islam and the second phase, in due course time by it's lingual domination... third phase natural asimilation of the local peoples during the 600 years lasted Ottoman rule... GCs were lucky that they became under Ottoman rule in 16th century, it lasted about 400 years, the last hundred years coincided with the collapse of Ottoman empire and followed by global nationalism movement; stopped Ottomanization of the rest of the Greek Orhodox people... Otherwise, had it started in 14th century, just a bunch of Greek Orthodox people would have remained in Cyprus...

And then a couple of genocides to deal with the last "details" and you are done Obviously when we talk about unity I wasn't talking about the foreign conqueror forcefully assimilating the native people. We are talking about a situation where what language you speak or what religion you have is irrelevant. (same rights, same taxes etc)

[Sotos]

GiG, I didn't follow your discussion with Erolz (not enough time) but how are the "British Aims for Cyprus" and what is RIGHT related? If something is right we don't need any British documents to tell us that is right, and conversely if something is written in a British document it doesn't mean it is what is right. So fuck the British and their aims for Cyprus.

I was surprised the British had such an idea in their 1964 "British Aims for Cyprus" document which was recently released under the Freedom of Information Act, I believe, as asked for by Mallinson and presented in his book. Its origin may give some weight behind it should our government be in a position to consider such a bold move for permanent peace. Certainly, it would make resettling the Anatolian settlers a viable and acceptable proposal.

There was a moment in our history when the British seemed to regret what had come out of the 1960 Constitution and were discussing such 'aims' as possible enosis, majority rule, unitary state under Greek Cypriots and suchlike, and the above 'resettling' of TCs as movements for peace in Cyprus. (This is my summary impression that I got from reading that part of the book nearly 2 years ago - I don't have time to look at it just now - so if a word doesn't suit Erolz, I don't want to set him off looking for a 'by' or a 'for' to waste time again ). But, that's my gist, anyway.

The Settlers are illegally in Cyprus in violation of the Geneva Convention (a war crime) and they live in properties they do not own. What the British write in their documents is irrelevant for our rights. What if tomorrow another British document becomes declassified that says that all Settlers should stay in Cyprus? Our rights do not depend on what the British write in their documents. The British screwed up Cyprus INTENTIONALLY and they never regretted. The only way that the British will regret their policies is if the Turks take the whole Cyprus, including their bases.

[GreekIslandGirl]

It would seem GiG that you believe that you can say on page 13 of this thread that the document in question was

A paper prepared for the Ministry of Defence!

and then deny that you said this on page 16 and that doing so does anything but prove your total disregard for the truth.

One is a quote, as you know but ignore, and the other which restates the same without plagiarism is mine through ongoing discussion. They mean the same to anyone who understands English.

I showed you the quote from the document which stated it was "at" their instigation (you prefer to ignore the fact) which means it was for them as opposed to what you said which was that it was written "BY" them and then you could find nowhere to back you up. You lied and then covered up! But these are insignificant to you - no discussion about the facts and their implications - only twists!

And since you insist I make every statement I say longer and longer to cover every eventuality so that you don't KEEP covering up the facts and the truth with your twisted lies - for the final time the brief was prepared so that Ministers were briefed ("co-ordinated advice") on what followed, British Aims for Cyprus, because of the pending discussion with the UN Mediator (it's in the document). So he was among the reason for which it was prepared (maybe many other reasons too- I can't state/find/ know everything but you will go on and on because it's the facts you do not like and you CANNOT touch those! So you try and bury them in meaningless messing about with claiming things are "BY" someone or other!

[erolz66]

It would seem GiG that you believe that you can say on page 13 of this thread that the document in question was

A paper prepared for the Ministry of Defence!

and then deny that you said this on page 16 and that doing so does anything but prove your total disregard for the truth.

One is a quote, as you know but ignore, and the other which restates the same without plagiarism is mine through ongoing discussion. They mean the same to anyone who understands English.

Mallinson describes the document as being 'for the defence and overseas Policy (offical) Committee'. Why is that ? Maybe HE does not understand English as you do ? Actually he says it was prepared for the DOP committee because that is the truth. You on the other hand claimed it was written for the Ministry of Defence because you were still trying to make out that it was written by the the POLICY committee to try and support your ridiculous propaganda attempt to make out that anything and everything in it represents official policy of 'the british' including offering financial aid to TC to resettle outside Cyprus when in fact the TRUTH is this was a suggestion by the then high commissioner in Cyprus only and it was not the policy of 'the British' at all. You purposely try to make out the document was written BY the policy committee (it was not) just as you purposely try to create an impression that it was this policy committee that said financial aid should be given to TC to aid them re settling outside Cyprus, by purposely leaving out the start of the sentence you quoted that made it explicitly clear this was a suggestion of the High Commissioner. This is what you do GiG. It is what you have always done. Systematic distortion of truth to suit your propaganda needs.

[DrCyprus]

It wasn't the Ottomans kept us divided... to the contrary of this, Ottomans inter-mingled with the local peoples of the regions they ruled... in the first phase by marriage with the women who converted to islam and the second phase, in due course time by it's lingual domination... third phase natural asimilation of the local peoples during the 600 years lasted Ottoman rule... GCs were lucky that they became under Ottoman rule in 16th century, it lasted about 400 years, the last hundred years coincided with the collapse of Ottoman empire and followed by global nationalism movement; stopped Ottomanization of the rest of the Greek Orhodox people... Otherwise, had it started in 14th century, just a bunch of Greek Orthodox people would have remained in Cyprus...

Bullshit. Outside Devshirme and forced conversions of newly subjugated artistocracy there was no real policy of Ottomanization.

The reason why there are no Greeks/Armenians/other Christian groups in Asia Minor right now are genocide, and population exchanges that happened at the turn of the 20th century.

The Kurds the Albanians and the Bosnians stand as a tremendous proof of the bullshit you try to pass as facts in this forum. They kept their identity but were made muslims. Fuck you and your lies.

[insan]

It wasn't the Ottomans kept us divided... to the contrary of this, Ottomans inter-mingled with the local peoples of the regions they ruled... in the first phase by marriage with the women who converted to islam and the second phase, in due course time by it's lingual domination... third phase natural asimilation of the local peoples during the 600 years lasted Ottoman rule... GCs were lucky that they became under Ottoman rule in 16th century, it lasted about 400 years, the last hundred years coincided with the collapse of Ottoman empire and followed by global nationalism movement; stopped Ottomanization of the rest of the Greek Orhodox people... Otherwise, had it started in 14th century, just a bunch of Greek Orthodox people would have remained in Cyprus...

Bullshit. Outside Devshirme and forced conversions of newly subjugated artistocracy there was no real policy of Ottomanization.

The reason why there are no Greeks/Armenians/other Christian groups in Asia Minor right now are genocide, and population exchanges that happened at the turn of the 20th century.

The Kurds the Albanians and the Bosnians stand as a tremendous proof of the bullshit you try to pass as facts in this forum. They kept their identity but were made muslims. Fuck you and your lies.

Brüyooo bee brüsttt!

https://books.google.com.cy/books?id=OH ... on&f=false

You are a basket case Drsomething... you knowledge is based on lies and propaganda of your alikes... you are an anti-social public enemy... an ultra nationalist...