Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

This is what happens when someone (or many) use hyperbolic language.. meaningless discussions.

last effort to discuss anything:
Do we accept that nature can produce a single cell organism using common acids?
After how many trials will this single cell organism make it to a two cell?

[Get Real!]

Do we accept that nature can produce a single cell organism using common acids?
After how many trials will this single cell organism make it to a two cell?

No idea mate...

[GreekIslandGirl]

This is what happens when someone (or many) use hyperbolic language.. meaningless discussions.

last effort to discuss anything:
Do we accept that nature can produce a single cell organism using common acids?
After how many trials will this single cell organism make it to a two cell?

All the chemicals are around us and we can speed up the process so that we see it happening in our lifetime:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 0152341984

We are the catalyst.

[Pyrpolizer]

This is what happens when someone (or many) use hyperbolic language.. meaningless discussions.

last effort to discuss anything:
Do we accept that nature can produce a single cell organism using common acids?
After how many trials will this single cell organism make it to a two cell?

All the chemicals are around us and we can speed up the process so that we see it happening in our lifetime:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 0152341984

We are the catalyst.

I am talking for the natural thing GIG not man made. After how many trials/years/decades/millenia will a single cell organism make it to 2 cell NATURALLY?

[GreekIslandGirl]

This is what happens when someone (or many) use hyperbolic language.. meaningless discussions.

last effort to discuss anything:
Do we accept that nature can produce a single cell organism using common acids?
After how many trials will this single cell organism make it to a two cell?

All the chemicals are around us and we can speed up the process so that we see it happening in our lifetime:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 0152341984

We are the catalyst.

I am talking for the natural thing GIG not man made. After how many trials/years/decades/millenia will a single cell organism make it to 2 cell NATURALLY?

But of course it has happened naturally - novel cells most probably construct all the time; some make it to two cells and more and some don't. How can we see these events except by speeding up the process? All that's happened in the test tube is 'natural'. We can only ever do what can be done naturally. We've simply found ways to speed up and capture the processes, that's all.

That's why I mentioned the power of breeding and selection to you earlier. Genetic engineering just speeds up the same processes available through breeding and selection; but being part of unhurried evolution, they are lengthy and our life-spans are short.

[erolz66]

Genetic engineering just speeds up the same processes available through breeding and selection; but being part of unhurried evolution, they are lengthy and our life-spans are short.

Transgenic engineering, when you take whole gene sequences from one species and implant them into another are not 'just speeding up the same process' of selection, be that selection by man or natural selection. You could spend the entire life time of man to date breeding goats and trying to 'select' ones that would produce spider silk in their milk and never achieve that result. The notion that 'We can only ever do what can be done naturally' and 'Genetic engineering just speeds up the same processes' is bollocks.

http://phys.org/news/2010-05-scientists ... -silk.html

[GreekIslandGirl]

I don't have time to give you a thorough lesson, but the general rule of thumb is that genetic engineering is the speedy way to carry out what can be done by breeding and natural selection and most molecular biologist would agree with me, even if you think it's bollocks. It's even taught like that in schools, I believe, these days.

Even the speeded up process of a spiderweb trans-genes inserted into the goats required a certain amount of 'breeding and selection' as even your own article pointed out:

Like any other genetic factor, only a certain percentage of the goats end up with the gene.

Given long enough (and that's what evolution has - time!), genes from dead organisms find their way into other organisms in a sort of natural 'transgenic' fashion and eventually some get incorporated and transcribed/translated. That's often the way we end up with multiple drug resistant bacteria. Because bacteria multiply so fast, they 'evolve' faster and we can witness some of these events. So when a mutant drug resistant bacterium dies, its DNA can get picked up by, say, another soil or water-born organism. Often, they pass around the genes for drug resistance among themselves, directly, through tubes. Such horizontal gene transfer has been studied in bacteria for decades now because you can get results quickly - now we're studying HGT in Eukaryotas too. Also, viruses/phages move bits of DNA/RNA around between organisms in another natural 'genetic engineering' way. So again, there are many examples that support the idea that genetic engineering is just our speeded up way of doing what can be done naturally given long enough.

You can carry on believing it's bollocks, but those that need to know, do know what I'm saying is correct. It's mostly the anti-GMO brigade that perpetuate the idea that molecular biologists are doing something that can't happen naturally anyway - given long enough.

Besides, you're contradicting yourself somewhat here:

You could spend the entire life time of man to date breeding goats and trying to 'select' ones that would produce spider silk in their milk and never achieve that result.

You're effectively agreeing that breeding for this quality is slow but genetic engineering has speeded it up.

[Anyway, I don't have time to explain all the nuances and possibilities for you so don't go off into some convoluted nonsensical word game, please.]

[Get Real!]

This just came to me: Miltiades has begun to skim through a bible and it pleases God.

True or false Miltiades?

[DrCyprus]

For the geneticists out there: Can you recommend a book, article or publication that explains in detail heterosis, hybrid vigor and outbreeding depression?

[DrCyprus]

This just came to me: Miltiades has begun to skim through a bible and it pleases God.

True or false Miltiades?

ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΣ 15:21-28
Ματθ. 15:21 Και εξελθών εκείθεν ο Ιησούς ανεχώρησεν εις τα μέρη Τύρου και Σιδώνος.
Ματθ. 15:22 Και ιδού, γυνή Χαναναία, εξελθούσα από των ορίων εκείνων, εκραύγασε προς αυτόν λέγουσα· Ελέησόν με, Κύριε, υιέ του Δαβίδ· η θυγάτηρ μου κακώς δαιμονίζεται.
Ματθ. 15:23 Ο δε δεν απεκρίθη προς αυτήν λόγον. Και προσελθόντες οι μαθηταί αυτού, παρεκάλουν αυτόν, λέγοντες· Απόλυσον αυτήν, διότι κράζει όπισθεν ημών.
Ματθ. 15:24 Ο δε αποκριθείς είπε· Δεν απεστάλην ειμή εις τα πρόβατα τα απολωλότα του οίκου Ισραήλ.
Ματθ. 15:25 Η δε ελθούσα προσεκύνει αυτόν, λέγουσα· Κύριε, βοήθει μοι.
Ματθ. 15:26 Ο δε αποκριθείς είπε· Δεν είναι καλόν να λάβη τις τον άρτον των τέκνων και να ρίψη εις τα κυνάρια.
Ματθ. 15:27 Η δε είπε· Ναι, Κύριε· αλλά και τα κυνάρια τρώγουσιν από των ψιχίων των πιπτόντων από της τραπέζης των κυρίων αυτών.
Ματθ. 15:28 Τότε αποκριθείς ο Ιησούς είπε προς αυτήν· Ω γύναι, μεγάλη σου η πίστις· ας γείνη εις σε ως θέλεις. Και ιατρεύθη η θυγάτηρ αυτής από της ώρας εκείνης.

Translation:

Chananite woman: Please help me, my daughter is sick.
Students of Jesus: Help her Jesus, aren't you the good guy in this story?
Jesus: Sorry guys, I'm only here to help Jews. Noone else.
Chananite woman (walks closer and kneels): please please please... help me Jesus.
Jesus: Doing a miracle for a non-Jew is like taking the bread of my own children and throwing it to the dogs.
Chananite woman: Dogs get to eat the crumbs at least.
Jesus: You are very persistant, so I'm just going to heal your daughter so you can leave me the eff alone.