Cyprus-Forum.com

[Rude Gal]

Everyone is entitled to human rights not just Greek Cypriots!

Sure. Here are the human rights:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Tell me which of your rights I do not accept????

You can start with article 1. If you support the embargoes against Turkish Cypriots, then I say you are not behaving “in a spirit of brotherhood” nor are you respecting our rights to be “free and equal in dignity and rights” with that of our Greek Cypriot brothers and sisters - and I should not be coerced into accepting Greek Cypriot rule in order to get my rights. I believe Malcolm X said, “Human rights are something you are born with. Human rights are your God-given rights”. I do not believe he (or any other champion of universal human rights) inserted the line “as long as you agree to live under Greek Cypriot majority rule”.

So Piratis, do you respect Turkish Cypriot human rights unconditionally or not?

I respect your rights as a fellow human being and share your people’s pain. I am not seeking to prevent them exercising their rights, though I acknowledge we have some practical problems in realizing them when it comes to their former lands.

And why were these “crimes” committed against Greek Cypriots in 1974 and since? Is it because the Turkish army felt like going on some ‘empire building exercise’ one summer’s day in 1974? Or perhaps because there was on-going persecution of its ethnic brothers and sisters (for 11+ years), which was made worse through the onslaught of our Greek Cypriot brothers and sisters following the Greek Junta’s invasion? And possibly because it had made a commitment under the Treaty of Guarantee to uphold the 1960 Constitution?

And why is the Turkish army still there? It really isn’t helping their global reputation. Maybe it’s because the Greek Cypriots voted “no” to the Annan Plan and the majority of Turkish Cypriots feel vulnerable without them (if not, why aren’t they on the streets in their 1,000s demanding they go, like they did against President Denktas?)?

It’s a sad fact of life that for 11 years most Greek Cypriots stayed silent or supported the attacks on Turkish Cypriots. It wasn’t a problem for them when we were being ethnically cleansed from our villages, were murdered or went missing. It only became an issue when the tables were turned. Two wrongs don’t make a right I hear you cry and you are right, but under the circumstances, how else could you end this onslaught?

In similar situations, other ethnic groups that have been persecuted have been permitted to establish their own states for their well-being (Bosnian in former Yugoslavia, Jews/Israel). Turkish Cypriots do not have the world’s blessing for an independent state, but do have backing for a bi-zonal, bi-communal country where the relationship is not one of “majority and minority, but of two equals”. This solution is the closest we have to the 1960 Constitution given the new realities on the ground, something Greek Cypriot politicians have ‘supported’ for decades, yet all the while telling its own people all refugees will go home.

The expectations on your side of the fence are high and understandably. But are they realistic? Your views say: Free Cyprus! – get rid of the Turkish army and settlers (latter is very racist), displace thousands of Turkish Cypriot refugees (who cares if they were refugees from my actions, or where they go, or whether they even want to live in an integrated island), preserve my majority powers, and then we can live as one big happy family.

Now excuse me for being less than positive about this, but are you being real?

Any conflict negotiations start with premise of a “win-win” solution. I don’t see any ‘win’ for Turkish Cypriots?

Hang on, you’re about to say we get to have all the embargoes lifted. Of course, my God-given rights have to be bartered away because…

Piratis, I’m not sure how you resolve conflicting human rights, but realism has to come into play if there is to be a permanent and fair settlement in Cyprus. It would therefore be far nicer to explore feasible solutions that satisfy both peoples (who both have to make sacrifices if this is to work). But I would say hold off the racist terminology like calling all Turks “barbarians”, as would learning your own history a bit better. No conquering power will be looked upon too kindly, but you should check the status of Greek Cypriots before the Ottomans arrived. I don’t believe the Catholic Venetians were too tolerant of your Orthodox ways, a feature which changed under Ottoman rule when you were free of serfdom and could practice your faith freely.

I look forward to a more open and respectful reply...

[Rude Gal]

How about this:

Forgiving each other for the past and accepting that from now on the the legal, human and democratic rights of everybody should be respected? Who is with me on this?

I am!

[Rude Gal]

Instead of talking about 1963 it would be nicer to talk about 2063.

Basically, both sides were criminally stupid in 1963, but that is not really any viable excuse for our genration to be the same now.

What sort of island do we want in 2063, and how do we get there? Do we need to spend our money on defence and valuable time discussing stairs and bridges, or something with more potential?

What shall we live of on the island? How do we develop that economy? Are there any role model countries to learn from?

Trying to agree to a common targer - which should be quite easy - should make it easier discussing how to get there.

Hey PG,

Blue sky thinking is a great way to find commonality. It would make a refreshing change if we could find ways to come together over things that will benefit all, rather than focus on past pain all the time...

I think the exploration into common opportunities and threats - the economy (tourism, education - has become big business in North), environment (water shortage, pollution control, urban development), social (sports and cultural events), ending world poverty etc.

If we got really ambitious, a Truth and Reconcillation Tribunal (like South Africa), a common history book (I saw on TC TV a documentary called Parallel Journies on suffering of people from both sides made by a TV director from each side) and a spot to plant trees for the 'good guys' from both sides (like The Jewish Holocaust Museum's Avenue of the Righteous Among Nations).

Now, how to make it work (or at least get ball rolling) when one side does not officially recognise the other? Perhaps it's got to be people led? If we don't have issues working with each other, we can start right now!

So pick a theme boyo (PG, I assume you is a guy?) and let's rock!

[Piratis]

If you support the embargoes against Turkish Cypriots, then I say you are not behaving “in a spirit of brotherhood” nor are you respecting our rights to be “free and equal in dignity and rights” with that of our Greek Cypriot brothers and sisters - and I should not be coerced into accepting Greek Cypriot rule in order to get my rights.

I do not support any embargoes against Turkish Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots should be free to trade their own goods (not what was stolen from Greek Cypriots) in a legal way. The best way to achieve this is the end of the illegal occupation. Even without this, RoC has proposed ways that would allow the TCs to trade in a legal way. Unfortunately your leaders have rejected these measures because what they care about is recognition of "TRNC" and not the well being of TCs.

So Piratis, do you respect Turkish Cypriot human rights unconditionally or not?

Both rights and responsibilities. These things always go together. All Cypriots, including TCs, should have the 100% of their rights and responsibilities without any kind of racist discrimination.

I respect your rights as a fellow human being and share your people’s pain. I am not seeking to prevent them exercising their rights, though I acknowledge we have some practical problems in realizing them when it comes to their former lands.

"Former lands"? There are no former lands. Everybody has the right to return to its own land.

And why were these “crimes” committed against Greek Cypriots in 1974 and since? Is it because the Turkish army felt like going on some ‘empire building exercise’ one summer’s day in 1974? Or perhaps because there was on-going persecution of its ethnic brothers and sisters (for 11+ years), which was made worse through the onslaught of our Greek Cypriot brothers and sisters following the Greek Junta’s invasion? And possibly because it had made a commitment under the Treaty of Guarantee to uphold the 1960 Constitution?

Because Cyprus is in a strategic place and Turkey has always wanted at least a part of it. In the intercommunal conflict about an equal number of TCs and GCs were killed. If Turkey had done what she was supposed to do according to the treaty of Guarantee, and had helped to uphold the 1960 Constitution there would be no problem. If Turkey intervened in 1974 to restore legality that was threatened by the coup, then today both TCs and GCs would be celebrating together the Turkish intervention. However what really happened is that Turkey found the excuse to invade and occupy part of Cyprus.

And why is the Turkish army still there? It really isn’t helping their global reputation. Maybe it’s because the Greek Cypriots voted “no” to the Annan Plan and the majority of Turkish Cypriots feel vulnerable without them (if not, why aren’t they on the streets in their 1,000s demanding they go, like they did against President Denktas?)?

Greek Cypriots voted "no" to a partition plan. Turkish army is here because the war that they started in 1974 by occupying part of the sovereign Republic of Cyprus is not over (we are in cease fire now). If the war had ended in victory for them (legalization of partition) then they might have as well removed their troops. Fortunately the partition was not legalized and the Annan plan was rejected.

I guess that what the 1000s of TCs demanded had more to do with financial benefits and the EU, rather than the restoration of our human rights. I guess now they have realized that solving their problem without solving our problem is not going to happen.

It’s a sad fact of life that for 11 years most Greek Cypriots stayed silent or supported the attacks on Turkish Cypriots. It wasn’t a problem for them when we were being ethnically cleansed from our villages, were murdered or went missing. It only became an issue when the tables were turned. Two wrongs don’t make a right I hear you cry and you are right, but under the circumstances, how else could you end this onslaught?

Not exactly 2 wrongs. If you count the centuries of oppression that came before, the crimes of TMT in that decade, and the Turkish occupation that followed, then we are talking about 1 wrong (that lasted 1 decade) VS 3 wrongs (that lasted for way longer).
Therefore if your conclusion is that we deserved the "punishment", you have to accept that TCs under the same terms should deserve an even bigger punishment and not a reward in the form of be gifted the land of GCs.

In similar situations, other ethnic groups that have been persecuted have been permitted to establish their own states for their well-being (Bosnian in former Yugoslavia, Jews/Israel).

TCs prosecuted?????? Under the same terms all of Turkey should be given to Greeks because whatever Turks have today was taken by prosecuting Greeks. If there are people that were prosecuted in Cyprus these are the GCs, who have suffered the centuries of the Ottoman oppression and the ethnic cleansing by the Turkish army. TCs in comparison have suffered WAY less for WAY less time.

Turkish Cypriots do not have the world’s blessing for an independent state, but do have backing for a bi-zonal, bi-communal country where the relationship is not one of “majority and minority, but of two equals”.

Says who? The only legal agreements are the ones signed in 1960. Beyond that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. This is why the Annan plan is now null and void.
Even if we agreed for BBF, we never agreed that that the 18% TC minority will have 50% power. This is undemocratic, it exists in no other country, and it is totally unacceptable.

This solution is the closest we have to the 1960 Constitution given the new realities on the ground, something Greek Cypriot politicians have ‘supported’ for decades, yet all the while telling its own people all refugees will go home.

All refugees will go home. Do you expect us to treat you as friends while you insist on violating our human rights and keep the land that we have been living for 3500 years under illegal occupation?

Any conflict negotiations start with premise of a “win-win” solution. I don’t see any ‘win’ for Turkish Cypriots?

And were is the "win" for Greek Cypriots?
What we have in 1960 is what is basis. Now you want more than that for you, and less than that for us. What you want is win for you and loss for us. Sorry, it will not be accepted, I hope you realized that already.
If you disagree that 1960 agreements are the basis, and you take the results of your illegal invasion as the basis, then sorry, but we do not negotiate under such terms. We will wait for the switch of the balance of power and we will return to you the "favor".

Hang on, you’re about to say we get to have all the embargoes lifted. Of course, my God-given rights have to be bartered away because…

So you want to "win" something more than your "God-given" rights, while you are not even willing to allow us to have even our basic human rights?
And you expect us to accept this????

Piratis, I’m not sure how you resolve conflicting human rights, but realism has to come into play if there is to be a permanent and fair settlement in Cyprus. It would therefore be far nicer to explore feasible solutions that satisfy both peoples (who both have to make sacrifices if this is to work).

There are two ways:
1) Human rights, democracy, equality of all Cyprus citizens regardless of race, religion, color etc. Just what every modern democratic country should be. I would accept to adopt the constitution of ANY other EU country you want.

2)A solution that is based on the balance of power. In this case what matters and what is considered "realistic" are not human rights etc, but how much power each side has. The powerful forces the weak to accept his conditions.

So far you were choosing number 2, but unfortunately for you, you didn't manage to take until the last step. Your conditions have not been accepted. Now you can continue to insist on number 2, however you should know that this kind of "reality" changes. A time will come that Turkey will not be the powerful anymore and the tables will be turned once again. And be sure that when this will happen it will be another part in the never ending circle of blood.

So isn't it better to just choose option one and end this circle of blood once and for all by creating equal Cypriot citizens and not "us" and "them" in an eternal straggle and conflict?

[Piratis]

How about this:

Forgiving each other for the past and accepting that from now on the the legal, human and democratic rights of everybody should be respected? Who is with me on this?

I am!

If you are, then we are in agreement. Are you sure you mean it?

[zan]

Rude Gal you rock……… I will tell you though that Piratis’s stamina in repeating certain untruths is about the best here so don't let off. His favourite numbers are, 1974, 200,000 and 1960. He occasionally throws in 60,000 for the GCs and an unspecified “Few hundred” for the TC side, Oh, and the words HUMAN RIGHTS, usually in bold. Maybe I am being unfair when I call them untruths and should in fact give them the polite term of “bending the truth”, in that not all the facts are presented in the order or tense that they should be. Good luck.

I do not support any embargoes against Turkish Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots should be free to trade their own goods (not what was stolen from Greek Cypriots) in a legal way. The best way to achieve this is the end of the illegal occupation. Even without this, RoC has proposed ways that would allow the TCs to trade in a legal way. Unfortunately your leaders have rejected these measures because what they care about is recognition of "TRNC" and not the well being of TCs.

See what I mean? The Idea was that the TCs trade through the certificates that the RoC gives. Result: Instant recognition of the RoC and all the ramifications that that will produce as in Turkey and the TRNC losing all its chips in the negotiation stakes. One small step for GCs, one giant leap for Greek kind. Say sorry, take all the blame and then lay down and die. Human rights at its best?

Both rights and responsibilities. These things always go together. All Cypriots, including TCs, should have the 100% of their rights and responsibilities without any kind of racist discrimination.

And exactly what are the Greeks and the GCs doing to show us that this is really what they are trying to achieve. Perhaps by joining the EU and confessing all their sins, saying a few “Hail Marries”, and bathing in the cleansing bright light of Brussels is enough? Or perhaps violating ethnic minority rights of the cheap labour force that they employ and do not pay. The taxes they avoid in order to get handouts from the EU. The closing of TC schools, the re-branding of TC products, the illegal building on TC land etc, etc was designed to give us hope?

"Former lands"? There are no former lands. Everybody has the right to return to its own land.

Regardless of what it will entail to do so. Give back the land that was illegally taken away from the TCs by government policy in its aim for ENOSIS. Oh, yeah forgot we are only going as far back as 1974 (Piratis number one) but with the 1960 agreement (Piratis number two)???????????????

Greek Cypriots voted "no" to a partition plan. Turkish army is here because the war that they started in 1974 by occupying part of the sovereign Republic of Cyprus is not over (we are in cease fire now). If the war had ended in victory for them (legalization of partition) then they might have as well removed their troops. Fortunately the partition was not legalized and the Annan plan was rejected.

I guess that what the 1000s of TCs demanded had more to do with financial benefits and the EU, rather than the restoration of our human rights. I guess now they have realized that solving their problem without solving our problem is not going to happen.

And of coarse the GCs had only the TCs best interests at heart. How are you going to solve your problem with out solving ours as well Piratis. What you want is total surrender and you are doing your best to make it look as if all the blame is with the Turkish people. What we want is a frank and open discussion, that you have denied us so far, in which we will be telling our side of the story in which there are already some non- Turkish people listening and taking notice that you and your kind are telling the world only half of the story. A story in which you come out as the wronged with your attempts to confuse the world with what the Turks have done and the part that the TCs have in this story. You realise that if you separate the two then what the Greeks and the GCs have done to the TCs is tantamount to violations of human rights that you are not man enough to admit.

Not exactly 2 wrongs. If you count the centuries of oppression that came before, the crimes of TMT in that decade, and the Turkish occupation that followed, then we are talking about 1 wrong (that lasted 1 decade) VS 3 wrongs (that lasted for way longer).
Therefore if your conclusion is that we deserved the "punishment", you have to accept that TCs under the same terms should deserve an even bigger punishment and not a reward in the form of be gifted the land of GCs.

His liking for certain numbers does not mean that he is any good at them. What a load of hogwash.

TCs prosecuted?????? Under the same terms all of Turkey should be given to Greeks because whatever Turks have today was taken by prosecuting Greeks. If there are people that were prosecuted in Cyprus these are the GCs, who have suffered the centuries of the Ottoman oppression and the ethnic cleansing by the Turkish army. TCs in comparison have suffered WAY less for WAY less time.

Says who? The only legal agreements are the ones signed in 1960. Beyond that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. This is why the Annan plan is now null and void.
Even if we agreed for BBF, we never agreed that that the 18% TC minority will have 50% power. This is undemocratic, it exists in no other country, and it is totally unacceptable.

Who, used to own 100% of the land. The 1960 agreement was made null and void several times over by Greeks and GCs who tied to ENOSIS the island to Greece. Makarios made that agreement obsolete from the moment he landed on Cyprus soil and proclaimed to his people (the GCs only) that ENOSIS was going to be achieved.

All refugees will go home. Do you expect us to treat you as friends while you insist on violating our human rights and keep the land that we have been living for 3500 years under illegal occupation?

Did I mention that 3,500 number on Piratis’ list?

And were is the "win" for Greek Cypriots?
What we have in 1960 is what is basis. Now you want more than that for you, and less than that for us. What you want is win for you and loss for us. Sorry, it will not be accepted, I hope you realized that already.
If you disagree that 1960 agreements are the basis, and you take the results of your illegal invasion as the basis, then sorry, but we do not negotiate under such terms. We will wait for the switch of the balance of power and we will return to you the "favor".

Don’t forget to get up once in a while to wipe away the cob webs.

So you want to "win" something more than your "God-given" rights, while you are not even willing to allow us to have even our basic human rights?
And you expect us to accept this????

We won the war. We are winning the war still because, in stead of fighting fair and apologising for the wrong doings of your fathers and stating that ENOSIS was wrong. And making it impossible for the TCs to participate in government. And using terror to make it impossible for TCs to live in their homes and attacking people with an army when they had nothing to fight back with. An illegal government utilising the wealth and power of Greece to persecute and nearly wipe out a race from the island. For the illegal government that calls itself the RoC to continue to hold hundreds of thousands of people hostage and under siege and then proclaim it self the white night of human rights is another sin that has to be confessed.

There are two ways:
1) Human rights, democracy, equality of all Cyprus citizens regardless of race, religion, color etc. Just what every modern democratic country should be. I would accept to adopt the constitution of ANY other EU country you want.

When you have reached this utopia of human rights or even come close to it, count me in.

2)A solution that is based on the balance of power. In this case what matters and what is considered "realistic" are not human rights etc, but how much power each side has. The powerful forces the weak to accept his conditions.


So far you were choosing number 2, but unfortunately for you, you didn't manage to take until the last step. Your conditions have not been accepted. Now you can continue to insist on number 2, however you should know that this kind of "reality" changes. A time will come that Turkey will not be the powerful anymore and the tables will be turned once again. And be sure that when this will happen it will be another part in the never ending circle of blood.

So isn't it better to just choose option one and end this circle of blood once and for all by creating equal Cypriot citizens and not "us" and "them" in an eternal straggle and conflict?

I am so happy that you choose to deny this option for us but you leave it open for you to use when the time is right. Now that’s what I call human and democratic rights the Piratis way.

[Piratis]

Rude Gal you rock……… I will tell you though that Piratis’s stamina in repeating certain untruths

Untruths? What I say is the 100% Truth.

Tell me which of the Truths I repeat is a lie according to you.

Is it the fact that Greek Cypriots have a history in Cyprus of 3500 years?

Is it the fact that the Ottomans that came from somewhere in Mongolia occupied Cyprus and oppressed us for over 300 years?

Is it the fact that during the intercommunal conflict that you cry about, Greek Cypriots had as many casualties as TCs did?

Is it the fact that the Turkish occupation is illegal?

Is it the fact that the pseudo puppet state called "TRNC" is illegal and invalid?

Is it the fact that you performed ethnic cleansing in the north part of Cyprus?

Is it the fact that you deny the human rights to 1000s of people?

Is it the fact that you caused 100 times more suffering to Greek Cypriots than the other way around?

Tell me which of the facts I say is a lie, and for each one you claim is a lie, I will easily prove that it is nothing but the truth and that the only lier in here is you.

Not only you are a lier, you are a criminal and a supporter of the genocide and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 Greek Cypriots. The day will come that criminals like you will pay for your crimes.

See what I mean? The Idea was that the TCs trade through the certificates that the RoC gives. Result: Instant recognition of the RoC and all the ramifications that that will produce as in Turkey and the TRNC losing all its chips in the negotiation stakes. One small step for GCs, one giant leap for Greek kind. Say sorry, take all the blame and then lay down and die. Human rights at its best?

Sorry, but this is the most funny part of all the crap that you said in your post

"instant Recognition of RoC"??? Dude, RoC is recognized. Didn't they bring you the news at your brainwashing schools yet?

And yes, the destruction of the criminal pseudo "TRNC" that was created based on ethnic cleansing and murders will be indeed human rights at its best. And be sure the day that this will happen is not far.

P.S. Why don't you take your lies like : "Give back the land that was illegally taken away from the TCs by government policy in its aim for ENOSIS." to the ECHR?

I will tell you why: Because you are nothing more than LIES. You say all this lies trying to excuse your crimes against us.
For barbarians like you courts of human rights etc mean nothing. Justice means nothing. International laws mean nothing. All you know is how to kill, rape and steal what others created.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis so much anger, you are clearly on a mission to get vengence against TCs, you have not made (last 31 years) and will not make any progress towards solving anything. All your rantings support division, Thank you.

[zan]

Just like you are paying for yours now Piratis. The 100% truths you tell your self are coming out to be lies or half-truths. I am glad that you left spaces in between your ranting list because this allows people to read between those lines and see what other people saying. These people are saying to you that you are wrong and some of these people are GCs and they are the ones that are caught up in your ridiculous propaganda ranting. Thank heaven for people like that I will take this chance to apologise to them with all my heart. They are the people that I shed a tear for every time I go into a morose mood and wonder why this is all happening. I will take some of the blame in this because I will not stand by and let you tell your lies and half-truths.

[Sotos]

Viewpoint, I am also agry when people like Zan show no respect to human rights and they shoud at us "We won the war". And then Turks want to be in EU