Sotos wrote:What I want is a free and democratic Cyprus but a free island as part of democratic Greece would be a fine arrangement also for the 50s.
60's onward but let's not quibble. Just accept the TRUTH that under Enosis Cyprus would not have been free if by 'free Cyprus' you mean not ruled by those who are NOT Cypriots. That it would not have been democratic if by Democratic Cyprus you mean the decision that affect and control the lives of Cypriots are made by Cypriots and only Cypriots. Will you accept this truth ? Can you accept it ?
Sotos wrote: I simply don't care to go over the SAME things we have already discussed. If you just can't have enough of it then go re-read our last discussion. Summary: You argued that the majority expressing their self-determination right by asking for union with Greece gave to the TCs a self-determination right as well. You based this on a document written by some scientists (you emphasized how knowledgeable those people are) but the conclusion was that what those people describe is just their own beliefs, not the norm in the real world. Even based on the document you presented and given that TCs do not have their own separate territory, their "self-determination right" would be about their cultural affairs only and doesn't give them any right to ethnically cleanse the majority and steal their lands in order to create a separate state. This kind of cultural affairs self-determination for TCs could be applied both as part of a Cypriot state or as part of a bigger Greek state. You can always go and RE-READ everything we ALREADY wrote... our agreements and disagreements are ALL there, but I have a life outside of this forum and I can't keep writing the SAME things over and over... especially when it comes to long posts that need a lot of time to be written!
Yes the TC communities rights, as CYPRIOTS who were NOT Greek
could potentially have been respected under enosis but the fact is 'you' made no attempt to do so what so ever because you believed and argued then as now that in fact the TC community as CYPRIOTS who were NOT GREEK, had and have no such rights at all. What you did then was an attempt to DENY us OUR rights and that is before we even look at what means you were willing to use to do so. Just as you do the same NOW when you pretend that these historical facts play no part in or explain why an 'atypical' form of democracy is needed. Needed NOT to deny you your rights but needed to protect ours.
This concept of how the legitimacy of 'one person one vote' is and can only be defined within the context of the legitimacy of the commonality of the 'polity' within which they are made is nothing new or obscure or just the belief of a couple of scholars today. It has been at the foundation of what democracy is and is not from the days of Plato. It is at the CORE of what democracy is and is not.
Plato in the laws of plato (715b) wrote: Such polities (group within which one person one vote is carried out) we, of course, deny to be polities, just as we deny that laws are true laws unless they are enacted in the interest of the common weal of the whole State. But where the laws are enacted in the interest of a section, we call them feudalities rather than polities; and the “justice” they ascribe to such laws is, we say, an empty name.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... page%3D715T K Seung in Plato Rediscovered: Human Value and Social Order page 259 wrote: Popular sovereignty may be nothing more than the authority of the ruling majority, which make political decisions on the basis of their private pleasure and interest, or their prejudice and ignorance. If laws are framed in such a partisan politics, Plato holds, they have no authority to be obeyed. The laws should only be made for the common good, and this legislative function belongs to reason.
George T. Menake in Three Traditions of Greek Political Thought: Plato in Dialogue page 373 wrote:For example, in Laws Plato clearly supports the notion that when the laws are not in the interest of the whole community, but only benefical to a segment of it, as for example in a tyranny, oligarchy or extreme democracy, they are not true laws.
Sotos you are far to intelligent to be able to reasonably claim that you do not and can not understand what PLATO was saying here. You say you want democracy. I say the singular form of democracy you want, you want BECAUSE it means that if and when you choose to act as not as a Cypriot polity but instead as a 'feudality' the justice that such democracy would deliver (to the TC community) is an 'empty name'.
I want a democracy in Cyprus that PLATO would recognise as not being just an 'empty name'. That is the basis of my stripping away EVERY demand of 'my side', no bi zonality, no bi communality, nor special privileges, no external guarantees, no foreign troops nothing except a SINGLE thing. That when and ONLY when you choose to act not as part of a polity but as a fuedality within it, you recognise that such is NOT democracy but in fact an 'empty name'. Yet even this it too much to ask of you apparently. Even more you argue that for your community to NOT be free to act as a feudality is an infringement of YOUR rights.
You are the cancer of Cyprus.
