Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

No where have I said Cyprus 'can not be part of Greece' either.

Doesn't what you say IMPLY that?

No. And absolutely fucking not given that I have ALREADY EXPLICITLY said "Yes the TC communities rights, as CYPRIOTS who were NOT Greek could potentially have been respected under enosis..." and now had to re quote that for the SECOND time.

Really Sotos ?

But their only "communal wish" was "no enosis - partition". They didn't say: "We will accept enosis but first we ask for x y z things that are necessary for our security and well being". So can you please be specific about which communal wishes of TCs we refused to consider?

Will you EVER stop asking / answering questions I have NOT asked and just fucking answer the one I HAVE asked ?

[Sotos]

I am not asking different questions I am asking for you to clarify what you mean. What were TCs communal wishes that were not considered by GCs? Generally speaking the wishes of any group of people need to be considered. But to agree (or disagree) with the rest, you need to tell me what were the communal wishes of TCs that we refused to consider. Did the TCs ask from us to provide assurances for their security in case of enosis and we refused?

[Lordo]

interesting that scotland has 8% population and they were given a vote for self determination. whathas percentage got to do with it anyway, even if it was 5% so what. the people are there when this country was formed and have every right to determine their future. with assholes like you boys in charge ignoring their democratic rights and then being surprised at the turn of events that followed.

i mean for magarios to say in 70s that he believed in enosis so openly an all......

[erolz66]

I am not asking different questions I am asking for you to clarify what you mean.

No Sotos you are consistently avoiding answering the question I have asked.

Generally speaking the wishes of any group of people need to be considered.

This is not an answer to the question I have been asking for pages and pages of this thread now and you steadfastly refuse to answer. the question was

Can you admit that the TC community had a right to resist the imposition of enosis on them without any consideration being given at all for their communal wishes

What were TCs communal wishes that were not considered by GCs? But to agree (or disagree) with the rest, you need to tell me what were the communal wishes of TCs that we refused to consider. Did the TCs ask from us to provide assurances for their security in case of enosis and we refused?

The question I have asked is one of principal. I am not asking what may have actually happened or not happened. My question is not about arguing if the GC leadership did or did not make efforts to 'consider the wishes of the TC community'. The above is just more avoidance BS from you. So I will rephrase the question and no doubt you will continue to avoid answering it.

Did / would / does the TC community have the right to resist the imposition of enosis on them IF such imposition was attempted without any consideration for their wishes.

That there were efforts to consider "a formula of union between Cyprus and Greece which might prove acceptable to them all [both communities]" even as late at 1965 is well and clearly documented, most explicitly in the Galo Plaza's Special UN report. As is the reality that, in the official words of Galo Plaza "the leaders of the Greek-Cypriot community have remained vague both as regards the timing of the proposed referendum and the form of Enosis. On the timing of the referendum. Archbishop Makarios has indicated that it is a decision for the people of Cyprus to take and that the proposed referendum could, for example, take place either immediately, or in a year, or in five years. On the form of Enosis, Archbishop Makarios has merely said that this would be decided by the Government of Cyprus in agreement with Greece before the Cypriot people are consulted on the subject. He has also left it to be understood that in the event that Enosis is chosen, any arrangements to be made after it has taken place would fall under the exclusive responsibility of Greece." It is clear that Makrios was not interested in trying find a formula and form of enosis that could prove acceptable to the TC community for he believed then as you STILL do now that a GC numerical majority in Cyprus pursuing what Plato would have called a 'feudalist' interest had the right to impose enosis on the TC without having to pay any regard for the wishes of the TC community. That it simply did not matter what the TC community may have wanted in the face of what a GC numerical majority wanted. In short he believed in a 'democracy' that Plato would have called an 'empty name' as you apparently still do but do not yet have the guts to just come out and openly say you do.

[Lordo]

it seems the brits are far more civilised then the greaks ever were. they gave both the welsh and the scots the right to vote on their future. and surprisingly they voted to stay in the union.

[Get Real!]

it seems the brits are far more civilised then the greaks ever were. they gave both the welsh and the scots the right to vote on their future. and surprisingly they voted to stay in the union.

Well you should learn from that Turko boy and give the Kurds a similar referendum...

After all... we are talking about 10.5 million not 110 like your community!

[Jerry]

Can you not just admit that the TC community had a right to resist the imposition of enosis on them without any consideration being given at all for their communal wishes, and we are done.

At what stage would they not have had the "right" to resist the imposition of enosis, 5%, 10% or 15% of the population? Would they have attempted to exercise that "right" if Cyprus was at the other end of the Mediterranean? Did the Turkish Cypriots use the mainland's desire to re-occupy Cyprus to their advantage? Did the overwhelming majority of Cypriots not have the right to seek the security of union with Greece from their historic oppressors?

Good questions Jerry. Relevant questions. I would have preferred an answer to my question but relevant questions are certainly preferable to avoidance and endless 'straw men' responses.

As to at what %of the Cypriot polity a subgroup would have to be before it could be reasonably said to have such a right, my personal view is that arguably at 10% of the population. By 15% I would say almost certainly yes. I do think that in purely practical terms for a 'people' to be able to realistically exercise a 'right to self determination' there has to be 'population size' lower limit. A group of a hundred people can not practically have such rights. I do accept that the TC community is close to this threshold but I do also think it is over it.

As to "Would they have attempted to exercise that "right" if Cyprus was at the other end of the Mediterranean?" I do think the right would have still existed in theoretical terms but I do also accept (and have said here previously) that if Cyprus had of been 50km of the coast of mainland Greece rather than Turkey, then in practical terms it is unlikely that we would have been able to resist the imposition of enosis without any consideration for our communal wishes having to be given. SUch would not have been 'right' but then the world often is not. Just as I have said if Cyprus was where it is today (50km off coast of mainland Turkey) but the population ratios have been reversed between GC and TC, GC would indeed in my opinion, have had a right to resist any attempted imposition of union with Turkey, without any regard being given for their communal wishes but in reality they probably would not have been able to do so.

As to "Did the Turkish Cypriots use the mainland's desire to re-occupy Cyprus to their advantage ?". I think we used whatever means we had to resist the imposition of enosis without any regard being given for our wishes as best we could, including illegal use of violence against innocents. What is more I think there were elements in our community that used 'enosis' as an 'excuse' to pursue division of Cyprus that they would have wanted even without enosis but I do NOT think this is true of the bulk of ordinary TC, nor do I think such elements had a hope in hell of achieving such desires and bringing along the bulk of ordinary TC with them in the absence of enosis.

As to "Did the overwhelming majority of Cypriots not have the right to seek the security of union with Greece from their historic oppressors?" I think the GC community had every right to want and to pursue enosis for themselves and as the GC community, and I understand why such could have been seen as a way of 'securing themselves from Turkey'. What I do not accept and what is the whol point of my argument here, is that such a pursuit can have been legitimately described as the valid democratic will of a Cypriot 'polity'.

So I have done my best to answer your questions as honestly and frankly as I can. Would you care to answer my prior question now ?

The Turkish Cypriots themselves may have felt they had the right to resist the imposition of enosis but the overwhelming majority did not. Consideration of the minority's communal wishes would involve, amongst other things, separate municipalities I believe, and that was no doubt perceived as the start of partition by stealth - something which 80% of the population had the democratic right to resist.
The Turkish Cypriots exploited their links and proximity to the mainland to the detriment of the other communities on the island. They must have been aware of the possibility of enosis since it had previously been on offer, they had the opportunity to leave the island when it became a Crown Colony but chose to stay on what was a predominantly "Greek" island. So, in answer to your question, no, they did not have the right to resist the imposition of enosis. Frankly what the Turkish Cypriots wanted became irrelevant once the British had introduced Turkey into the equation.

[Lordo]

you should have stuck to your enosis ideas before 1960. cyprus would have been split into two and problem would have been solved then. you cowards.

[B25]

Thank you Jerry, well said.

Now watchout for the word wizard, to bombard you with all sorts of BS to rubbish you.

[Lordo]

do what, leave the island. what stupidity. where do you get such complexes that the island belongs to you and your wisher are our commands. fuck off.