Cyprus-Forum.com

[kurupetos]

its very simple, sotos and the rest of the fascists wish to reduce tcs to a minority status. not on your life boys. try your luck elsewhere. perhaps crete will agree with you. why don't all you fascists move there and leave us in peace.

You are the fascist, kuz. Wake up or perish!

[Sotos]

If there was enosis then Cyprus would be free and democratic like every other Greek island is, like every other territory of every other country is (only exception is when the MAJORITY of the population of a territory doesn't want to be part of that greater nation). Your flawed logic would mean that every island or even every little village would need to be an independent country because being part of a greater country would result in no freedom and no democracy. This is clearly not the case. About your ethnic minority I will simply paraphrase what YOU said about the Greek minority in Turkey (which apparently you think would be fine with Plato): "The TC minority in Greece would be able to exercise it's right to self determination as part of the Greek people and nation". The GCs fought for what they had every right to fight for. Our struggle was against the Colonialists until you choose to join them and attack us. Your struggle was never about something that you had a right for. You didn't struggle for the right to control your cultural affairs. You fought for partition i.e. our ethnic cleansing from half of our island, something which was never your right. So if the reason you keep talking about enosis ...even if it is something nearly nobody wants anymore... is to try and score points, then you failed... because what happened in the 50s was just another example of the Turks oppressing our rights like they have been doing for centuries. Another example: On the 9th of July 1821 the Turks massacred 486 Greek Cypriots just because they suspected that those GCs believed in the freedom of Cyprus as part of a Greek nation!

So Erolz, do you want to talk about the FUTURE for an INDEPENDENT and free Cyprus? Or are you just interested in trying to score points and play the blame game for past events? I get the feeling that you are only interested in the second and that I should change the way I talk to you.

[Lordo]

there you are fantasizing about enosis again. how many times do i have to tell you you can take your part of the island and enosise with who ever you wish,

[Get Real!]

If there was enosis then Cyprus would be free and democratic like every other Greek island is...

[erolz66]

If there was enosis then Cyprus would be free and democratic like every other Greek island is,

It would be a free and democratic PART of Greece. Why do you refuse to accept the plain and obvious truth that it would NOT be a free and democratic CYPRUS ?

Your flawed logic would mean that every island or even every little village would need to be an independent country because being part of a greater country would result in no freedom and no democracy.This is clearly not the case.

This not the case because this is not what I have said or am saying. I am saying - as Plato said thousands of years ago, that for a decision for a 'polity' (group of people) to want to be part of a greater 'polity', it must be a desire that is in "interest of the common weal of the whole" of that polity and not just be "in the interest of a section", otherwise any claim that such is a just or democratic decision is just an 'empty name'. Why do you refuse to address what PLATO said about this ? Why do you continue to insist that what I claim is a necessary democracy in Cyprus given the history of your communities pursuit of enosis as being 'unreasonable Turkish demands designed to deny your communities its valid rights' when in fact my interpretation of democracy is consistent with Plato's (you do know he was Greek and not Turkish right ?) and your demand that there can only be a SINGULAR form of democracy is in fact at direct odds to Platos ? Why will you not address this ?

About your ethnic minority I will simply paraphrase what YOU said about the Greek minority in Turkey (which apparently you think would be fine with Plato): "The TC minority in Greece would be able to exercise it's right to self determination as part of the Greek people and nation".

As far as decisions in TURKEY are taken in "interest of the common weal of the whole" of TURKEY then yes such would be fine with Plato. To say however that the decision in CYPRUS to MAKE it part of GREECE was a decision that was ""interest of the common weal of the whole" of CYPRUS and was not ""in the interest of a section" of CYPRUS, would NOT be ok with Plato. THIS is what you refuse to accept and the REASON you refuse to accept it is clear to me and that reason is NOT about 'democracy' - not as Plato understood it 2000 years ago, it is in fact about the exact opposite, about 'democracy' only as an 'empty name'.

The GCs fought for what they had every right to fight for.

You had every right to strive for enosis but NOT in the name of a valid democratic expression of a CYPRIOT polity. Just ask Plato. You could only legitimately do so by admitting that you chose to do as part of a greater Greek polity and not a CYPRIOT one but doing it this way would not have given you the opportunity to also just take no consideration what so ever for the wants and rights of the TC community in Cyprus so you chose to try and do the former DESPITE it clearly being the opposite of what Plato considered democracy to be and you failed. You STILL continue to try and do so today, despite failing to convince anyone back then.

Our struggle was against the Colonialists until you choose to join them and attack us.

Not true Sotos and certainly not the whole truth. Your struggle was against anyone who opposed enosis. You killed enough of your own for that to patently be the case.

Your struggle was never about something that you had a right for.

There you go AGAIN insisting that my community had no right to strive to resist the imposition of Enosis on them without the GC community having to pay ANY regard for their communal wishes as part of a CYPRIOT polity. Tell it to Plato. He would not believe your BS and neither do I.

You didn't struggle for the right to control your cultural affairs. You fought for partition i.e. our ethnic cleansing from half of our island, something which was never your right.

I have said 100 hundred times that I agree and accept that we had not absolute right to what we have today, yet you CONTINUE to insist I am saying that when I clearly am not ? Why is that Sotos ? Why do you always have to retreat in these discussion to 'you had no right to partition the Island' when I have consistently and always accepted that in over 10 years of discussion here. Why do you end up always refuting something I am NOT saying, rather than address what I AM saying ?

So if the reason you keep talking about enosis ...even if it is something nearly nobody wants anymore... is to try and score points, then you failed...

The reason I am talking about enosis TODAY, is that when I strip away every possible demand my side could and has made in terms of a settlement TODAY except for the single 'exception' I require, I require exactly BECAUSE you community historically tried to achieve enosis in the name of a CYPRIOT polity and such an attempt WAS an attempt to deny my communities rights - not the ones it did not have, like a right to partition, but the ones that it DID have. It is not about 'scoring' points, it is about getting to the point, the core point - the one you refuse to acknowledge and address.

because what happened in the 50s was just another example of the Turks oppressing our rights like they have been doing for centuries.

Not according to Plato.

Another example: On the 9th of July 1821 the Turks massacred 486 Greek Cypriots just because they suspected that those GCs believed in the freedom of Cyprus as part of a Greek nation!

No Sotos those people did not believe in the freedom OF CYPRUS, they believed in the freedom of GREEKS who lived in Cyprus, which they were entitled to do, just not to try and do it in the name of a CYPRIOT polity. The problem for them and you is that there is not JUST greeks in Cyprus that make up a CYPRIOT polity. Do it in the name of a Cypriot 'feudalims' or in the name of a wider Greek polity, fine no problem for me. The problem for YOU however is that doing so as such makes clear that the TC community DO have rights, no NOT the right to partition, but rights none the less and you wanted and need to just ignore those rights - then and NOW.

So Erolz, do you want to talk about the FUTURE for an INDEPENDENT and free Cyprus? Or are you just interested in trying to score points and play the blame game for past events? I get the feeling that you are only interested in the second and that I should change the way I talk to you.

I AM talking about the FUTURE of an independent and free Cyprus. I am explaining why TODAY I as a TC that wants a free and independent Cyprus, need the one single 'exception' in such compared to states today who do NOT have a history of one side trying to impose a 'fedualist' desire under the guise of it legitimately being the desire of the polity of THAT country in order to deny that other and smaller community their rights. I often get the feeling that you are physically incapable of dealing with this issue 'objectively' similar to how you were incapable of accepting the simple truth of the statement that someone who sought enosis could not be said to be a Cypriot patriot but only a Greek one, such that you had to go to the absurd lengths of claiming that the word patriot did NOT mean in english what every english dictionary defined it as meaning but in fact meant something else instead. Maybe I should just strop wasting my time with you.

[erolz66]

If you want an abridged version Sotos.

Just admit that the TC community had a right to resist the imposition of enosis on them without any consideration being given at all for their communal wishes, and we are done. Just that, just that single right, nothing else, not a right to partition, not a right to 'ethnic cleansing', not a right to separate or equal representation within a unitary Cyprus. JUST that they had the right to resist the imposition of enosis on them without any consideration being given at all for their communal wishes. Can you do that Sotos ? Some how I fear you are not capable of doing that but who knows maybe you can prove me wrong ?

[Sotos]

Erolz, you can't be making silly arguments of the type "The Greek minority in Turkey is able to exercise it's right to self determination as part of the Turkish people and nation" and then try to use Plato to excuse "rights" that somehow would apply only to your minority but not to the Greek minority in Turkey and every other minority for that matter. The Greek minority in Turkey has suffered for centuries. Here is what was happening at the same time as the events in Cyprus:

The Istanbul pogrom, also known as the Istanbul riots or September events, was organized mob attacks directed primarily at Istanbul's Greek minority on 6–7 September 1955.

The pogrom greatly accelerated emigration of ethnic Greeks from Turkey, and the Istanbul region in particular. The Greek population of Turkey declined from 119,822 persons in 1927,[6] to about 7,000 in 1978.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom

Similar things could be said about the Armenian, the Kurdish and all other minorities in Turkey. And yet somehow those minorities are able to "exercise their right to self determination as part of the Turkish people and nation" but you couldn't do the same as part of the Greek people and nation? Sorry, but nobody can take you seriously when your "principles" are made to fit just your minority and no other. I am not going to recognize any rights that would apply to you but not to the Greeks of Constantinople and every other minority. If you think that democracy as is applied in most places is problematic then I will be happy to discuss it and consider your arguments of how democracy in general ... in Cyprus, in Greece, in Turkey, in the UK etc can be better for all.

No Sotos those people did not believe in the freedom OF CYPRUS, they believed in the freedom of GREEKS who lived in Cyprus

Yes Erolz, the Greeks, the people of Cyprus. Those same people that the Ottoman Turks came to Cyprus to enslave are the same people that wanted their freedom from the Ottomans. The Ottomans massacred 486 innocent people because they dared to think about their freedom... but I don't see you being very willing to condemn that. All you seem to care about is demanding "rights" for your own minority which you do not recognize to any other.

[Lordo]

if you like the way terggy is sottuimmu go and live there.

[erolz66]

Erolz, you can't be making silly arguments of the type "The Greek minority in Turkey is able to exercise it's right to self determination as part of the Turkish people and nation" and then try to use Plato to excuse "rights" that somehow would apply only to your minority but not to the Greek minority in Turkey and every other minority for that matter. The Greek minority in Turkey has suffered for centuries. Here is what was happening at the same time as the events in Cyprus:

When you distort what I did say, by omission, and turn it into something I did not say, then indeed it becomes 'silly' but the silliness is on your part.

As far as decisions in TURKEY are taken in "interest of the common weal of the whole" of TURKEY then yes such would be fine with Plato.

So a decisions taken in Turkey by a feudalism (a sub set of the polity of all Turks that may well be a numerical majority) that is NOT in the "interest of the common weal of the whole [of Turkey and all those within it]" is indeed only democracy in 'empty name' as Plato recognised 2000 years ago and I acknowledge today and you continue to refuse to accept, because that does not suit your narrative requirements.

And yet somehow those minorities are able to "exercise their right to self determination as part of the Turkish people and nation" but you couldn't do the same as part of the Greek people and nation? Sorry, but nobody can take you seriously when your "principles" are made to fit just your minority and no other. I am not going to recognize any rights that would apply to you but not to the Greeks of Constantinople and every other minority. If you think that democracy as is applied in most places is problematic then I will be happy to discuss it and consider your arguments of how democracy in general ... in Cyprus, in Greece, in Turkey, in the UK etc can be better for all.

Again you distort what I have actually said, what I have ALWAYS said about such minorities in other countries. As far as decisions in Turkey take in to consideration the wants and desires of the minority communities that share Turkey with 'ethnic Turks', then such minorities can be said to be able to exercise their right to self determination as part of the wider Turkish people. As far as decision in Turkey are made that are the will of JUST the 'feudalism' of ethnic Turks (and taken BECAUSE of the differences between ethnic Turks and said other Turks and not REGARDLESS of such differences) and take no consideration what so ever for the will of other communities within Turkey, then such actions support and strengthen the calls and claims that such communities require some mechanism for SEPARATE representation of their community, either within a Turkish state or at the most extreme range of the spectrum, outside of it (sucsession). My position is ENTIRELY consistent.

The difference between these 'other places', for there surely IS a difference, the difference you ABSOLUTLEY refuse to address, is not that TC have more or different tights to these other groups. The difference is that the ethnic Turk 'feudalism' in Turkey did not choose to pursue in Turkey, in the name of a Turkish polity, that Turkey would NOT be ruled by those living in Turkey but actually it would be ruled by a much larger group of people who did NOT live in Turkey. THIS is the difference in the situation in Cyprus at the end British rule. Enosis IS the difference. THIS is what you refuse to acknowledge.

Yes Erolz, the Greeks, the people of Cyprus.

The Greeks, the largest PART of the people of Cyprus but NOT the ONLY people of Cyprus, or as you seem to think the only people in Cyprus who matter or count.

The Ottomans massacred 486 innocent people because they dared to think about their freedom... but I don't see you being very willing to condemn that.

What a pathetic thing to say. Of course I condemn such murders, by the standards of today or by the standards of 1950. I will even condemn them by the standards of the 1800. You desperation to distract from those issues I raise and that you refuse to address is becoming increasingly clear Sotos.

All you seem to care about is demanding "rights" for your own minority which you do not recognize to any other.

My position is entirely consistent. The only way to claim it is not is to do what you repeatedly have done here Sotos, to DISTORT what I have actually said. The principles are exactly the same in every case. The means to achieving them can vary depending on the specifics of the situation but the principles are immutable.

So can we stop yet Sotos with the incessant knocking down of the straw men you keep raising up, as a means to avoid addressing the issues I HAVE raised ? Will you EVER address these issues ? Or is ALL you can do seek to avoid them ? I ask you once again

Can you not just admit that the TC community had a right to resist the imposition of enosis on them without any consideration being given at all for their communal wishes, and we are done. Just that, just that single right, nothing else, not a right to partition, not a right to 'ethnic cleansing', not a right to separate or equal representation within a unitary Cyprus. JUST that they had the right to resist the imposition of enosis on them without any consideration being given at all for their communal wishes.

[Lordo]

do terggs in greace have any rights what so ever, can they call themselves terggish.