Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...makes me think, is a Federation, a BBF, good for Turkey? Makes me think if it's good for Cyprus, in Turkey, why not?

[Nikitas]

Anytime now RW they will announce their BBF with the Kurds. It will have all the democratic elements, like the rotating presidency, allocation of free housing for Kurds who move to Istanbul, political equality, an upper house with 50 per cent Kurdish MPs, and naturally a bizonal element whereby the Kurds who make up 20 per cent of the population will gt 40 pre cent of the territory.

It's guaranteed, according to my sources down the pub.

[Sotos]

Anytime now RW they will announce their BBF with the Kurds. It will have all the democratic elements, like the rotating presidency, allocation of free housing for Kurds who move to Istanbul, political equality, an upper house with 50 per cent Kurdish MPs, and naturally a bizonal element whereby the Kurds who make up 20 per cent of the population will gt 40 pre cent of the territory.

The Kurds, who are the majority of Kurdistan, have a right for their own independent state or, at the very least, a federal state. The situation with Kurds and Kurdistan is comparable to that of the Scottish people and more obvious than the case of Kosovo. The TCs on the other hand are a minority who were never the majority in a separate part of Cyprus until the ethnic cleansing of 1974. The Annan plan and any BBF would be something totally unfair for the majority.

[Sotos]

Oceanside you make some valid points. But The ROC is already part of a confederation the EU,which now with its single currency is rapidly evolving towards becoming a full federation Any unified Fed Cyprus would be part of the EU and its laws taxes, services,human rights would need to comply with those of the EU. In 50 years much will have changed again as Europe becomes more federalised.

The EU might not even exist in some years. And what do you think will happen if Cyprus does not comply with the EU laws, human rights etc because of the TCs? The EU will send its army to enforce those laws and principles? No, they will tell to Cyprus to sort out its internal problems ... and maybe penalize Cyprus (i.e. all of us) for the failure to comply.

[Oceanside50]

what a joke all of this is... Turkish/TC democracy and rights. Its apparent that the only thing the TC have been doing is sitting around the kaffenion, justifying stealing others peoples properties and making a state out of their thievery. When their logic is exposed to the Western world it becomes ludicrous and they still insist that their plan is fair and no rights taken away. Take for instance, Ataturks Hat law of 1925....Everyone was ordered to wear a western hat instead of a fez so turks could express themselves freely. what kind of bullshit is this?

[erolz66]

The Greek Cypriots will NEVER be permitted to return and form the majority in any of the villages they were ethnically cleansed from in 1974. Annans restrictions mean that even if a Greek Cypriot village is empty today NO Greek Cypriot will ever be allowed back unless SIXTEEN TIMES as many Turkish Cypriots are allowed to colonise it at the same time (Article 3 Para 7 of the foundation agreement). These restrictions because they are on a village-by-village basis will make it impossible for the Greek Cypriots to form any kind of viable community in the north.

The above - which is taken from written evidence submitted to the British Parliament in 2004 by Argyros George Argyrou - IS A LIE. It was a LIE then and it remains a LIE now. It is NOT TRUE. The 'restrictions' in the Annan plan, that were defined on a village or regional basis, were EXPLICITLY temporary. They end ENTIRELY after 19 years of the plan coming into force. The restriction on right to reside within a given component state that is not temporary is also NOT based on a 'per village basis' but only on a component state wide basis in a ratio of 1/3 to 2/3 of people who can not speak the language of that component state. You can confirm the truth of this from the links I have given and the quotes I have made from the ACTUAL Annan plan - as found on the UN website.

There can be no sensible discussion with you about such things Oceanside50, when you refuse to see and accept what is indisputable FACT - that which is written in the Annan Plan itself and can be easily verifed, but instead just regurgitate lies about the plan that it does NOT say. It is just pointless. I will not continue to discuss the other lies you re present here as if they are not because they simply do not warrant my time or energy to do so. If you want to talk about what the Annan Plan ACTUALLY says, fine I will engage but if all you can do it re present the distortions of others about what it does NOT say, I have no interest.

Whilst it was concerning to me that the future of all Cypriots and all of Cyprus is partly in the hands (through your right to vote in a referendum) of someone who does not even understand the ECHR is not an organ of the EU - it scares me shitless that our future is apparently partly in the hands of someone who can not see plain and simple truth and fact and separate that from blatant lies and distortion.

[Lordo]

what a joke all of this is... Turkish/TC democracy and rights. Its apparent that the only thing the TC have been doing is sitting around the kaffenion, justifying stealing others peoples properties and making a state out of their thievery. When their logic is exposed to the Western world it becomes ludicrous and they still insist that their plan is fair and no rights taken away. Take for instance, Ataturks Hat law of 1925....Everyone was ordered to wear a western hat instead of a fez so turks could express themselves freely. what kind of bullshit is this?

ocean baby you is one hell of an ass boy.

[repulsewarrior]

I would guess that in Turkey, like in Cyprus, there would be more than two Constituencies. Indeed, if a Turkic Constituency existed in Turkey, like a Greek Constituency in Cyprus, it would be possible for Turks as Turks, rather than "Turks" to demonstrate there willingness to act as Individuals, for Turkey. As "Turks", at another level of government, they will enjoy the effort they can put in to "Turkishness", and naturally Kurds, who are "Kurds" having this same Liberty (as Persons), would/can find happiness in knowing that they have the means to sustain themselves as "their" distinct identity, in Turkey, as well.

...the Alevi deserve a Constituency, they certainly do not deserve to be ignored, at the moment they remain "Foreign Affairs" to Turkey's Leadership.

...there is a Flag of Turkey, isn't it for the same reasons, an equal to the Flag of Cyprus?

[Nikitas]

Erol,

You keep harping about the Annan plan, but do not ask yourself why the GCs rejected it with such clear majority.

The plan gave the TCs all they wanted immediately, but put the GC "benefits" on a long time scale, and at the discretion of Turkey. The GCs, justifiably or not, mistrust Turkey. The military annexes to the plan, those details that regulated the armed forces on both sides in the interim periods were revealing: they gave Turkey a crushing firepower advantage. Why did the Turks insist on this? What was it the led them to ask and get such a military advantage during the time that supposedly the problem was solved and all that remained was the gradual mutual withdrawal of forces?

If Turkey did not comply, what were the remedies available to the GC side? None, and this while the TC "benefits" were complete.

My personal objections to the plan, which still hold for any future plan, hinge on the seriousness with which we deal with the Bizonality issue. Whether we like it or not, this principle is the major pillar of the new deal. A long convoluted demarcation line between the two regions is detrimental to the maintenanace of a Bizonal regime. The nebulous status of the SBAs was a potential source of future conflict, the apportionment of territory and coastline was unacceptable. The present "Green Line" is 72 kilometers, the Annan demarcation line with all those curves and salients was probably twice as long. The point should be to shorten the not lengthen the 72 kilometers.

Personally I see the governance etc issues as secondary. For me the basic issue is to accomodate the security more than the cooperation aspect of daily life. Under a solution it should be possible for any Cypriot to live without ever being put in a situation where he feels that he is being dominated by the "other" side. In other words a GC, if he so choses, can live in the south and never have to deal with a TC official, and vice versa for a TC in the north. My approach is if you want the two BBs of the BBF you should have them in full, no half measures. IF at some point in the future the situation is deemed uneacceptable then let us change it then, not now.

And on top of all that there is always the statement of Soysal, cynical but he said it, that we must also provide for the possibility that the new partnership does not work and the TCs decide to split off and go their own way. To which I say the same planning must be made by the GCs.

For some of us the geopolitical aspect is more risk laden than any other and therefore becomes the No 1 priority. THe TCs do not want to risk a return to the enclaves, and the GCs have an equally reasonable desire not to relive 1974.

[Lordo]

I would guess that in Turkey, like in Cyprus, there would be more than two Constituencies. Indeed, if a Turkic Constituency existed in Turkey, like a Greek Constituency in Cyprus, it would be possible for Turks as Turks, rather than "Turks" to demonstrate there willingness to act as Individuals, for Turkey. As "Turks", at another level of government, they will enjoy the effort they can put in to "Turkishness", and naturally Kurds, who are "Kurds" having this same Liberty (as Persons), would/can find happiness in knowing that they have the means to sustain themselves as "their" distinct identity, in Turkey, as well.

...the Alevi deserve a Constituency, they certainly do not deserve to be ignored, at the moment they remain "Foreign Affairs" to Turkey's Leadership.

...there is a Flag of Turkey, isn't it for the same reasons, an equal to the Flag of Cyprus?

rw what has terggy got to do with it. is there talks in terggy about bbf. what is the obession with terggy. there is an old terggish saying . ounubgdeki yemege bak. look at the food in front of you.