Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

1 with an agreement.

So I have given what for me would be the furthest I can go in order to get an agreement. What is your equivalent ? A ban on enosis ? Is that it ?

[cypriotnado]

I suspect Sotos you do not want any kind bi zonal bi Com federation. You wish to see is a return to pre 74 Cyprus, one of majority rule?
My question is how do you expect to ever achieve this?

There are two ways: 1 with an agreement. 2 by force None of those are currently possible so that is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. However I would rather have democracy and live in a normal (sort of) country that has control of 2/3rd of the island, rather than some transvestite Frankenstein sort of arrangement that would downgrade the majority of Cypriots to a community in a country under the control of Turkey!

NO NO to transvestite Frankenstein!! It sounds to me therefore that you support a permanant partition. As I cannot concieve how your points 1 or 2 will ever be possible. I say this because reality is that in the next 100 years Turkish settlers will be in such large numbers that we will have an Israel or Kalingrad situation or parts of Turkey. With such democraphic changes its hard to envisage any unitary state emerging under your described terms?

[Get Real!]

I say this because reality is that in the next 100 years Turkish settlers will be in such large numbers that we will have an Israel or Kalingrad situation or parts of Turkey. With such democraphic changes its hard to envisage any unitary state emerging under your described terms?

They will never be in large numbers simply because it can’t support them and there’s next to nothing to attract them.

[Pyrpolizer]

Your argument doesn't stand when you consider that Cyprus had been for centuries under foreign (non Greek) rule and that during most of that time Greece itself was under foreign rule and therefore powerless. Our ethnicity is not Greek because of the Greek textbooks. We wanted to get the Greek textbooks BECAUSE we are Greek. The order between the two is very clear! And many of our textbooks today are written in Cyprus by Cypriots. It is you who advocates an elitist approach to the issue. You want to brainwash people and transform them to something different. Language and religion play an important role in the identity of people so even if you attempted that sort of brainwashing most probably you would fail to achieve the desired result. That is NOT the right approach and it could actually backfire since most people are not very keen on having their identity taken away. The right approach is to ACCEPT that Cyprus is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural country and that all Cypriots are equal regardless of their ethnicity. Joining into a single ethnic group could come only gradually over the decades and centuries.

You think my view is that of an elitist?
Well, here's an experiment for you to do: Let all PRIVATE schools get subsidized with the exact amount it costs the Government per student.
Then watch out and start counting how many will follow the "Greek" or "Turkish" public line of education and religious brainwashing in public schools contrary to that of private schools.
Imo you are a victim of decades of education and religious brainwashing designed for you by some elitists.
Your judgement has already been blurred and you will never be able to see things clearly. At least give the chance to future generations.

[Flying Horse]

My grandmother is German . I've said before, she suffered a similar fate during WW2, as the other side of my family in Cyprus 1974.
She is not from some alien species and neither am I! !!!

Although , love her dearly , but we fall out each and every week on our different opinions on politics of the current Greek crisis . I forgive her, she's 89 and believes everything she reads in her daily newspaper

[Sotos]

And one more thing about the "Turk" thing. In this forum you have traditionally defended the position of the Turkish side, right?

That is just not true Sotos. I present my personal perspective which is that of a CYPRIOT who happens to be one of Turkish ethnic back ground. Even now when it is totally clear that my position as a Cypriot of Turkish ethnic background on what would constitute an acceptable settlement it fundamentally different from that of the 'Official Turkish position' you persist in arguing that it is not. The problem here Sotos is not in what I actually am, it is in what you choose to want to perceive me as.

You say you want "Cypriots to democratically take decisions for Cyprus". You do accept that under enosis that would NOT be true right ? That is why you can not say (in any SANE world) in the name of "Cypriots democratically taking decisions for Cypriots" I want there to be no Cypriot nation and want decisions for Cypriots to be taken by Greeks. Once what you want is that decisions in Cyprus be taken by anyone other than just Cypriots, you can no longer claim such a desire is the will of 'Cypriots democratically taking decisions for Cypriots'. It is not and can never be.

You ask why I do not simply ask for a prohibition on enosis as my single 'condition' to agree to give you everything you want in return. The reason is we have been down that road before, and it did not work out too well. What I want is an acceptance of principal.

Everybody presents their own personal perspective but when somebody reads your posts (related to the Cyprus Problem) it is clear to see on which side you are. This is not just about the future, but mostly about the past. You clearly put most of the blame on our side. Hence the "Turk", which is not meant to be an offense ... it just means the "other" in this case.

People can decide to give up part of their sovereignty to one degree or another and then if they change their mind they can split from the union with a secession... even when this is not officially an option (has been done many times). And lets face it, Cyprus was never fully independent anyways.

What has been done before was not just prohibition of enosis but a LOT of other things and it is those other things that caused the problems! In the end of the day if you don't trust us then no kind of true unity will be possible no matter what the agreement contains. If it is something that we feel is fair then you CAN trust us. If it is something that is imposed on us with threats then you can NOT trust us of holding the agreement.

[Sotos]

Your argument doesn't stand when you consider that Cyprus had been for centuries under foreign (non Greek) rule and that during most of that time Greece itself was under foreign rule and therefore powerless. Our ethnicity is not Greek because of the Greek textbooks. We wanted to get the Greek textbooks BECAUSE we are Greek. The order between the two is very clear! And many of our textbooks today are written in Cyprus by Cypriots. It is you who advocates an elitist approach to the issue. You want to brainwash people and transform them to something different. Language and religion play an important role in the identity of people so even if you attempted that sort of brainwashing most probably you would fail to achieve the desired result. That is NOT the right approach and it could actually backfire since most people are not very keen on having their identity taken away. The right approach is to ACCEPT that Cyprus is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural country and that all Cypriots are equal regardless of their ethnicity. Joining into a single ethnic group could come only gradually over the decades and centuries.

You think my view is that of an elitist?
Well, here's an experiment for you to do: Let all PRIVATE schools get subsidized with the exact amount it costs the Government per student.
Then watch out and start counting how many will follow the "Greek" or "Turkish" public line of education and religious brainwashing in public schools contrary to that of private schools.
Imo you are a victim of decades of education and religious brainwashing designed for you by some elitists.
Your judgement has already been blurred and you will never be able to see things clearly. At least give the chance to future generations.

Most people in ALL countries would choose Private schools over Public schools if the price was the same. Your so called experiment is faulty Not to mention that many of those private schools are Greek and the students that come out of them are not any less Greek than the rest.

[Sotos]

1 with an agreement.

So I have given what for me would be the furthest I can go in order to get an agreement. What is your equivalent ? A ban on enosis ? Is that it ?

An agreement or a solution? The two things are different. A mere agreement with a questionable life-span would only require something that is better than what we have now for the majority of Cypriots.

[erolz66]

Everybody presents their own personal perspective but when somebody reads your posts (related to the Cyprus Problem) it is clear to see on which side you are. This is not just about the future, but mostly about the past. You clearly put most of the blame on our side.

The side I am on is the side of Cyprus. What is incomprehensible to you , is that I can both be on the side of Cyprus and yet be TC as well. That is the problem you will always have if you believe as fundamentally as you do that Cyprus is Greek.

Hence the "Turk", which is not meant to be an offense ... it just means the "other" in this case.

If you want to differentiate me as a kind of Cypriot different from you then you would refer to me as TC and not 'Turk'. The problem is not that I or you consider the term 'Turk' offensive. The problem is that you consistently apply 'labels' to me that are just not true as the basis of your 'arguments'. To give one recent example and I could literally give loads of others where you essentially do the same. From a recent post of yours.

Even more hypocritical is when the "sensitive ones" are Turks who support ethnic cleansing as a "solution" and deny the genocides they committed

Yet I am NOT Turk I do NOT support ethnic cleansing and I have nothing to do with genocides. Like I say this is not an 'isolated' example.

People can decide to give up part of their sovereignty to one degree or another

But WHICH people. I think you can agree that the German people can not decide to give up the sovereignty of the French people on behalf of the French people. What you refuse to accept and understand is what makes us a 'Cypriot people' is that we all live in Cyprus AND we all want Cyprus to be democratically ruled by CYPRIOTS. That when you CHOOSE to want to be not part of a Cypriot people that decide democratically what happens in Cyprus, you can not still claim that that is the will of the VERY THING you want to no longer exist.

If it is something that we feel is fair then you CAN trust us. If it is something that is imposed on us with threats then you can NOT trust us of holding the agreement.

Exactly. Which is why I even take the time to try and explain my perspective. From my perspective to try an impose union with Greece on me against my will is NOT a valid expression of the will of a unitary Cypriot people. To me it is just an attempt by Greeks to impose Greek rule on me in my own homeland against my will. That I will resist attempts at such imposition in the same way and with the same motivation and fervour that any group of people fighting for their freedom against foreign rule does. That I would do so not because I am 'Turk' - and therefore am genetically evil and a thief and an oppressor and believe my voice is worth 4 times more than yours, but because I believe (fundamentally, deeply, absolutely) doing so would be an expression of a desire for the SAME rights as you, personal and communal - the right to not have imposed on me rule by people who are foreigners to me - geographically and culturally. What I want, from my perspective is not MORE rights than you individually or communally but the SAME rights as you- and for the same reasons.

I do NOT expect you to agree with me on this. I do however want you to at least understand it and stop with tiresome - you are 'Turk' , you are no different from ottoman oppressors, you support ethnic cleansing, you just want to steal from GC, you want more rights than me etc etc etc.

[erolz66]

An agreement or a solution? The two things are different. A mere agreement with a questionable life-span would only require something that is better than what we have now for the majority of Cypriots.

I am asking you want would be the furthest you could go to secure an agreement, deal, settlement, solution - whatever the fuck you want to call it, such that you would not in 3 years or 5 years or 30 or 50 years time subsequently declare it as 'unfair and imposed on us' such that you decide you can just unilaterally ignore it.