Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

So why is it Sotos given these facts, do the likes of you and GiG constantly, relentlessly persistently obdurately stubbornly and pigheadedly choose to describe me as a 'Turk' ?

Even if you were not half British but plain/ordinary Kibrisli, he would still call you a 'Turk". And call himself a "Greek", while in reality he is a standard Kypreos. It's not only Sotos a few other in this forum repeat the same nonsense like broken records even going back to the ottoman times to prove their point. They are just unable to understand how such comments may come across.

How about letting people have the identity that they inherited (or choose) without this affecting their rights as equal Cypriots? To me it is not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis... nearly nobody wants that anymore. It is about the PRINCIPLE that the people of this island should be free to take democratic decisions one person one vote. If a group of people want to be considered an official minority and have certain protections as a result... no problem. But imposing themselves on the majority is unacceptable! Cypriots should be free to keep whatever identity they want and democratically take decisions for Cyprus. If some people have a problem with the identity of the majority of Cypriots it is not our fault and their negative attitude toward the majority doesn't give to them any additional rights.

[yialousa1971]

If I were in a room with you and GiG and one other of similar outlook...

I would just shoot Oracle to put her out of her misery and as for Sotos... I would test his javascript skills and if he's not up to scratch he dies too!

I wouldn't be too cocky GR, Sotos would kick the chicken shit out of you! I just hope Oracle has a minute to spare to call the emergency vet to come and put you back together.

[erolz66]

How about letting people have the identity that they inherited (or choose) without this affecting their rights as equal Cypriots? To me it is not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis... nearly nobody wants that anymore. It is about the PRINCIPLE that the people of this island should be free to take democratic decisions one person one vote. If a group of people want to be considered an official minority and have certain protections as a result... no problem. But imposing themselves on the majority is unacceptable! Cypriots should be free to keep whatever identity they want and democratically take decisions for Cyprus. If some people have a problem with the identity of the majority of Cypriots it is not our fault and their negative attitude toward the majority doesn't give to them any additional rights.

The above Sotos is exactly what I have said I am prepared to agree. No bi-zonality, no bi-communality. One person one vote. Cypriots free to democratically take decisions for Cyprus. My only 'protection' that I say I need in order to sign such an agreement , would never come into play as long as it continues to be "not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis" and about "Cypriots taking decisions for Cyprus". It would only be needed in case in the future you decide that no longer want it to be about 'Cypriots taking decisions for Cyprus' but instead want to be about Greeks alone deciding that there will be no Cyprus, not just for yourself but for me as well as a Cypriot who is not Greek.

So if what you say holds true I have accepted EVERYTHING you want. Yet you STILL try and insist my position is 'no different from the official Turkish position', you still insist on calling me and labelling me 'turk', still insist that I am a supporter of 'ethnic cleansing' and so on and so on. If you can not see how that makes YOU part (and note I put 'part' - no all) of the problem then we have no chance.

[Get Real!]

If I were in a room with you and GiG and one other of similar outlook...

I would just shoot Oracle to put her out of her misery and as for Sotos... I would test his javascript skills and if he's not up to scratch he dies too!

I wouldn't be too cocky GR, Sotos would kick the chicken shit out of you! I just hope Oracle has a minute to spare to call the emergency vet to come and put you back together.

It’s funny the silly little things I sometimes throw in for a laugh, seem to have the greatest impact on you Yialoser whereas everyone else probably has a smile or laugh and moves on…

[Pyrpolizer]

So why is it Sotos given these facts, do the likes of you and GiG constantly, relentlessly persistently obdurately stubbornly and pigheadedly choose to describe me as a 'Turk' ?

Even if you were not half British but plain/ordinary Kibrisli, he would still call you a 'Turk". And call himself a "Greek", while in reality he is a standard Kypreos. It's not only Sotos a few other in this forum repeat the same nonsense like broken records even going back to the ottoman times to prove their point. They are just unable to understand how such comments may come across.

How about letting people have the identity that they inherited (or choose) without this affecting their rights as equal Cypriots? To me it is not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis... nearly nobody wants that anymore. It is about the PRINCIPLE that the people of this island should be free to take democratic decisions one person one vote. If a group of people want to be considered an official minority and have certain protections as a result... no problem. But imposing themselves on the majority is unacceptable! Cypriots should be free to keep whatever identity they want and democratically take decisions for Cyprus. If some people have a problem with the identity of the majority of Cypriots it is not our fault and their negative attitude toward the majority doesn't give to them any additional rights.

Your identity can be manipulated and directed by an elitist minority. Have you ever thought why our public education is a copy of the Greek education and textbooks and how on earth the church interfered and imposed religious teaching from day one in all public schools?
So it's one thing to have democratic system without that being actually imposed/fabricated by some elitists ,and another to have a normal democratic system that arose from the people themselves without manipulation/direction.
Both communities in Cyprus have been subject to such manipulation by their elitists. Hence we are now at the stage of been brainwashed to feel we have separate identities, with conflicting interests.

Nobody would disagree with your principles under normal conditions.
However at present the conditions and the events that lead to these current conditions, are anything but normal.
We should start from somewhere, and slowly slowly move to your desired point-which from what I understood is identical to that of erolz66.

NB. After a solution all textbooks and syllabus in all public Federal schools should be identical and MADE IN CYPRUS by experts. The only difference should be the language in which they will be written.

[Sotos]

How about letting people have the identity that they inherited (or choose) without this affecting their rights as equal Cypriots? To me it is not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis... nearly nobody wants that anymore. It is about the PRINCIPLE that the people of this island should be free to take democratic decisions one person one vote. If a group of people want to be considered an official minority and have certain protections as a result... no problem. But imposing themselves on the majority is unacceptable! Cypriots should be free to keep whatever identity they want and democratically take decisions for Cyprus. If some people have a problem with the identity of the majority of Cypriots it is not our fault and their negative attitude toward the majority doesn't give to them any additional rights.

The above Sotos is exactly what I have said I am prepared to agree. No bi-zonality, no bi-communality. One person one vote. Cypriots free to democratically take decisions for Cyprus. My only 'protection' that I say I need in order to sign such an agreement , would never come into play as long as it continues to be "not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis" and about "Cypriots taking decisions for Cyprus". It would only be needed in case in the future you decide that no longer want it to be about 'Cypriots taking decisions for Cyprus' but instead want to be about Greeks alone deciding that there will be no Cyprus, not just for yourself but for me as well as a Cypriot who is not Greek.

So if what you say holds true I have accepted EVERYTHING you want. Yet you STILL try and insist my position is 'no different from the official Turkish position', you still insist on calling me and labelling me 'turk', still insist that I am a supporter of 'ethnic cleansing' and so on and so on. If you can not see how that makes YOU part (and note I put 'part' - no all) of the problem then we have no chance.

It will never be "Greeks alone deciding" since with a democracy every Cypriot would get the same one vote! What you have difficulty to accept is the identity of the majority of the population. The majority of the people are ethnic Greek and Christian. So it is inevitable that the choices of the majority will be affected by who they are. E.g. Greek Cypriots might want to join the EU and not the Arab League. If the majority where Arab Muslims then the opposite could be true. So the identity of the majority is ALWAYS relevant to the decisions taken. If the majority of people of North Ireland were Catholics then North Ireland would definitely not be part of the UK, right? The other thing you need to accept is that what we want is what is best for Cyprus... and it is offensive when you suggest the opposite! You keep committing the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Sometimes independence is not the best option for an island or territory and the people should be free to decide on this also (and this is just hypothetically speaking. I do NOT want any kind of union).

So you say that your position is very different from the official Turkish position... however your position seems to not apply to the reality but just in some alternative universe where the ethnicity of the majority was not Greek or in some alternative universe where the ethnicity, religion etc of people played absolutely no role in their preferences!! If you had said "my only demand is that union with Greece should be prohibited" that would be great, because you would be specific. But the vague way you put it is unrealistic and it leaves the door open for disrespecting democracy on some undefined number of situations... vagueness on such important topic is a recipe for disaster!! So remove that vagueness and make your position realistic... list 3 or 10 or 100 very SPECIFIC things that you want over and above human and minority rights and then we will see how different your position is.

And one more thing about the "Turk" thing. In this forum you have traditionally defended the position of the Turkish side, right? See how Kikapu writes in the forum and note that I never called him a "Turk".

[cypriotnado]

I suspect Sotos you do not want any kind bi zonal bi Com federation. You wish to see is a return to pre 74 Cyprus, one of majority rule?
My question is how do you expect to ever achieve this?

[Sotos]

So why is it Sotos given these facts, do the likes of you and GiG constantly, relentlessly persistently obdurately stubbornly and pigheadedly choose to describe me as a 'Turk' ?

Even if you were not half British but plain/ordinary Kibrisli, he would still call you a 'Turk". And call himself a "Greek", while in reality he is a standard Kypreos. It's not only Sotos a few other in this forum repeat the same nonsense like broken records even going back to the ottoman times to prove their point. They are just unable to understand how such comments may come across.

How about letting people have the identity that they inherited (or choose) without this affecting their rights as equal Cypriots? To me it is not about Greek or Turk and it is definitely not about enosis... nearly nobody wants that anymore. It is about the PRINCIPLE that the people of this island should be free to take democratic decisions one person one vote. If a group of people want to be considered an official minority and have certain protections as a result... no problem. But imposing themselves on the majority is unacceptable! Cypriots should be free to keep whatever identity they want and democratically take decisions for Cyprus. If some people have a problem with the identity of the majority of Cypriots it is not our fault and their negative attitude toward the majority doesn't give to them any additional rights.

Your identity can be manipulated and directed by an elitist minority. Have you ever thought why our public education is a copy of the Greek education and textbooks and how on earth the church interfered and imposed religious teaching from day one in all public schools?
So it's one thing to have democratic system without that being actually imposed/fabricated by some elitists ,and another to have a normal democratic system that arose from the people themselves without manipulation/direction.
Both communities in Cyprus have been subject to such manipulation by their elitists. Hence we are now at the stage of been brainwashed to feel we have separate identities, with conflicting interests.

Nobody would disagree with your principles under normal conditions.
However at present the conditions and the events that lead to these current conditions, are anything but normal.
We should start from somewhere, and slowly slowly move to your desired point-which from what I understood is identical to that of erolz66.

NB. After a solution all textbooks and syllabus in all public Federal schools should be identical and MADE IN CYPRUS by experts. The only difference should be the language in which they will be written.

Your argument doesn't stand when you consider that Cyprus had been for centuries under foreign (non Greek) rule and that during most of that time Greece itself was under foreign rule and therefore powerless. Our ethnicity is not Greek because of the Greek textbooks. We wanted to get the Greek textbooks BECAUSE we are Greek. The order between the two is very clear! And many of our textbooks today are written in Cyprus by Cypriots. It is you who advocates an elitist approach to the issue. You want to brainwash people and transform them to something different. Language and religion play an important role in the identity of people so even if you attempted that sort of brainwashing most probably you would fail to achieve the desired result. That is NOT the right approach and it could actually backfire since most people are not very keen on having their identity taken away. The right approach is to ACCEPT that Cyprus is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural country and that all Cypriots are equal regardless of their ethnicity. Joining into a single ethnic group could come only gradually over the decades and centuries.

[Sotos]

I suspect Sotos you do not want any kind bi zonal bi Com federation. You wish to see is a return to pre 74 Cyprus, one of majority rule?
My question is how do you expect to ever achieve this?

There are two ways: 1 with an agreement. 2 by force None of those are currently possible so that is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. However I would rather have democracy and live in a normal (sort of) country that has control of 2/3rd of the island, rather than some transvestite Frankenstein sort of arrangement that would downgrade the majority of Cypriots to a community in a country under the control of Turkey!

[erolz66]

And one more thing about the "Turk" thing. In this forum you have traditionally defended the position of the Turkish side, right?

That is just not true Sotos. I present my personal perspective which is that of a CYPRIOT who happens to be one of Turkish ethnic back ground. Even now when it is totally clear that my position as a Cypriot of Turkish ethnic background on what would constitute an acceptable settlement it fundamentally different from that of the 'Official Turkish position' you persist in arguing that it is not. The problem here Sotos is not in what I actually am, it is in what you choose to want to perceive me as.

You say you want "Cypriots to democratically take decisions for Cyprus". You do accept that under enosis that would NOT be true right ? That is why you can not say (in any SANE world) in the name of "Cypriots democratically taking decisions for Cypriots" I want there to be no Cypriot nation and want decisions for Cypriots to be taken by Greeks. Once what you want is that decisions in Cyprus be taken by anyone other than just Cypriots, you can no longer claim such a desire is the will of 'Cypriots democratically taking decisions for Cypriots'. It is not and can never be.

You ask why I do not simply ask for a prohibition on enosis as my single 'condition' to agree to give you everything you want in return. The reason is we have been down that road before, and it did not work out too well. What I want is an acceptance of principal.