Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Yes, a racist view is a racist view. But again there are degrees of severity. If I think inside my own head, without ever expressing the view "All Armenians are evil and I wish they were all dead" is a racist view, nobody is harmed. If I am the leader of an empire and I express that view publicly, millions of people get killed. I hope you can see the difference.

Of course I accept that there is a difference in terms of the amount of potential 'harm' that could be done. What I do not accept is that because GiG expressing her racist views here patently will not affect anyone to any degree that those view are therefore 'less racist', which is what you were saying originally as far as I understood it. They are not 'less racist', they (the views publically espoused by Gig and yourself) are what they are which is inherently racist, regardless of how many people the expression of them harms others or potentially harms others.

There was never a dilemma of the kind "Greek rather than Cypriot" since "Greek" is our ethnicity while "Cypriot" is not an ethnicity. So your whole argument is based on a false premise.

Now you are playing semantics as far as I am concerned. We either choose to be Cypriot or we choose to be something other than Cypriot. If you choose to be something other than Cypriot then you can not claim than a desire from one group alone that has chosen to be something other than Cypriot can validly do so in the name of (or as an expression of the will of) a unitary Cypriot people.

Furthermore your position is totally vague and practically impossible! Who will interpret the actions taken by a democratically elected government? Even worst... who will interpreted the REASONS of the actions taken? If it will be up to you to interpret it then in effect that translates veto right on anything.

Actually it is pretty easy to determine if a 'desire' (wanted future that affects all Cypriots) is a valid expression of the will of a unitary Cypriot people regardless of the Cypriot community they belong , or if it is in fact only an expression of the will of one part of the communities that make up the Cypriot people. Can you imagine how such a determination might be made, without any need to know the reason why a given person votes the way they do ? If no then I'll explain it (once again) for you - but hey I think working it out for yourself is within you abilities ?

Here we go again. I don't know about you being half this and half that kind of situation, but for most of us our identity is not a choice. It is not some kind of shirt we choose to wear!! We have the same identity today as the identity we had when your ancestors first invaded and occupied our island. After being oppressed for centuries by foreign rulers what we want is our rights... which includes the right to democratically take decisions for Cyprus and this includes union with others if we so choose. The ethnic minorities created in Cyprus by the foreign rulers can have the 100% of their human and minority rights and can be part of the decision making as equal individuals together with the rest of us. But a minority imposing on Cyprus any conditions beyond that is NOT your right but on the contrary it is a violation of our rights and it is the reason why we are having a conflict with you and not with any other ethnic minorities... such as the Latins which are a minority created in Cyprus before yours but which does not have such kind of provocative demands.

[erolz66]

Over and over and round and round we go. Do not worry Soto I will before too long be once more 'ground down' to such a degree that I will once more stop posting on the forums and leave it to the careful ministrations of yourself and GiG. Until I feel refreshed enough to return once more.

Being part of Greece would not be "colonial rule" since it would be something chosen democratically by the Cypriot people.

It would not be colonial rule for those Cypriots who have chosen to want to be Greek rather than just Cypriot. It would be the imposition of a change of colonial ruler for those Cypriots for whom Cyprus could also be validly said to be their homeland and choose to want to be Cypriots over Greeks - be they TC or 'Chikorians' (did I spell that right ? ). That is the whole point. The idea that a subset of people who live in Cyprus, even a numerical majority, who have CHOSEN to want to be not Cypriot but Greek instead can validly impose such a future on a significant number of others who also live there and do NOT want to Greek rather than Cypriot, can validly do so in the name of a unitary Cypriot people is, to me at least, absurd. That they can choose to do it if they want is not in question as far as I am concerned, only that they can first make such a choice and then try and present such a desire as the valid expression of a unitary Cypriot people, when clearly it is in fact an expression only of those who do not want Cyprus to exist as a unitary nation in its own right.

Recently people in Scotland voted in favor for union (enosis) with non-Scottish people. The "yes" vote was just over 55%, far less than what it would have been in Cyprus in the 50s. Similar referendums were held in Gibraltar and Falklands. The ethnic minorities in Scotland were not asked for their separate approval. They got one vote each, like all the rest.

The reason you are getting so confused is you are just not making an appropriate analogy for understanding the point I am trying to make.

Lets image that a numerical majority of those who live in Scotland currently decide, influenced by GiG powerfully persuasive arguments about the greatness of being Greek, to choose to want to not be Scottish but instead to want to be Greek and want Scotland to cease to exist as a nation at all. Lets even say 80% of those living in Scotland fall under GiG's spell and a mere 20 % do not. Fine so far, no problem at all - they are free to choose what they want to be. However to then claim that such a desire is a valid reflection of the will of a unitary Scottish people is to me at least absurd.

However a much simpler and more realistic demonstration of the same concept , that does not involve any mystical powers on the part of GiG, is the following.

Consider the upcoming promised UK referendum on remaining within the EU or not. Nicola Sturgeon has argued and continues to argue, quite cogently imo, than on an issue as fundamental to the lives of those living in Scotland and in the face of a potential prospect where 80% + of those living in Scotland do NOT want to leave the EU, that a numerical majority of English that DO want to leave the EU can impose that English will on a Scottish population and claim to do so as a valid expression of the will of a unitary British people. That it would in fact be nothing but an unjust license for the English to potentially impose their will on those who live in Scotland. Hence she (and others) are indeed calling for separate and equal consent from the people living in Scotland (and Welsh and Northern Irish as well) . Of course DC is resisting such calls and will probably get his way but lets not pretend that the point that Nicola Sturgen is making is so 'out there' and 'obtuse' that it is beyond basic comprehension from those who do not share such an opinion. In essence the point that NS is arguing is as close to the one I am arguing as you can get given the massive differences in so many ways between the actual two situations.

[erolz66]

Ho Hum

Here we go again.

Indeed.

I don't know about you being half this and half that kind of situation, but for most of us our identity is not a choice. It is not some kind of shirt we choose to wear!!

Of course we get to choose. GR chooses to be Cypriot and not Greek. RW chooses to be Cypriot 'over' and 'above' but also as well as being Greek. I choose to be Cypriot and not Turkish. You choose to be Greek over and above being Cypriot. GIG chooses to be ....... no I will no go there as I am attempting to keep 'personal attacks' out of my posts for now as far as I can. You deny me and them our right to freely make such choices ?

After being oppressed for centuries by foreign rulers what we want is our rights... which includes the right to democratically take decisions for Cyprus and this includes union with others if we so choose.

And you can have such rights for YOURSELVES, but you can not simply impose YOUR wants on those you yourself choose to define as not 'you' and for whom Cyprus is also their homeland. Not in the name of a unitary Cypriot people you CHOOSE to say does not exist.

The ethnic minorities created in Cyprus by the foreign rulers can have the 100% of their human and minority rights and can be part of the decision making as equal individuals together with the rest of us.

And if what you had chosen to seek was the creation of an independent Cypriot state that included 'us' and 'yourselves' there would have been and wold be no problem.

As I have already stated - I have no hope or expectation that you would or could ever consider my perspective as 'right' in an absolute way. I do at times, as a not so closet occasional 'idealist', have a dream that you might one day be able to accept that in a situation like the one we have today in Cyprus, that it is possible for you and me to hold very different views and perspectives on the same 'event' and for it to be possible that neither is absolutely right or wrong. But given how long I have been up now without sleep I would 'settle' for you at least recognising what it I am saying and have been saying over and over for years now so I can stop feeling forced to fucking repeat myself over and over and over again.

[Sotos]

A territory is either under colonial rule or it isn't. If Cyprus had united with Greece with the vote of the vast majority of Cypriots then it clearly wouldn't be a colony. The case of Scotland is a good example. The fact that the Scottish are a nation and yet they had the right to choose against independence supports my position, not yours. In the 50s Cyprus was not a nation, but an island with a majority of native Greek population. Northern Ireland is also part of the UK and it is not a "nation".

If identity is just a choice that anybody can make so easily then instead of asking from the majority of the population to change their identity why not ask from your minority to change their identity to Greek Cypriots? Assimilating ethnic minorities is considered a good idea in many countries anyway!

We don't want to impose anything on you. You came to our island to impose your rule on us. All we want is the freedom that you and others took from us. Nothing more. In the end of the day we don't even want union with Greece anymore. But it is important to recognize that you have no right to undemocratically impose anything in Cyprus anymore. You have done that for way too long already!

[Garavnoss]

Germans are lazy, too big for Earth and smelly!

Germans are smelly. Is that really the level of your discussion GiG ?

Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal.

Fine words indeed, coming from the President of a nation that [even under HIS term of office] has brought death and destruction to so many regions of this planet [upon which we all inhabit, breathe the air of, cherish our children on and should be allowed to enjoy our mortality upon whilst we are here].

He also stated "Ich bin ein Berliner" and of the two statements, the latter makes more sense I reckon , given the recent developments where the "Krauts" were obviously out to get the "Greeks" [maybe because they got their arses kicked by them in WW2] and even now the current President of the US, old "Schwarzen Arsch Obama" has got the look of the "Kraut" about him and I believe his wife is very fond of his "Blutwurst".

I think we should keep an eye on these Nazi bastards, they are creeping up on us again.

Sorry to interrupt gentlemen !

[Pyrpolizer]

So why is it Sotos given these facts, do the likes of you and GiG constantly, relentlessly persistently obdurately stubbornly and pigheadedly choose to describe me as a 'Turk' ?

Even if you were not half British but plain/ordinary Kibrisli, he would still call you a 'Turk". And call himself a "Greek", while in reality he is a standard Kypreos. It's not only Sotos a few other in this forum repeat the same nonsense like broken records even going back to the ottoman times to prove their point. They are just unable to understand how such comments may come across.

[Lordo]

can a gc be so backwardly stupid. i dont believe they are just winding us up.

[Pyrpolizer]

The very first time I understood what this EU nonsense means is when we started ascension negotiations and started abiding to their regulations.
A German guy patented a very expensive safety device, and all of a sudden that device became an obligatory part of the EN standards. Problem is it was very expensive and seemingly useless. The excuse that far was that one child in France died in the absence of that device.It proved to be a fabricated lie. Notice the Standard still exists, however after a couple of years everybody realized what was going on, and stopped using it. Not even one injury was ever reported from the absence of that safety device.

Anyway I was talking over the phone with the regional manager of the German firm and I told him I did not want the extra safety device fitted on because of the cost. The German guy got furious at me and in a very authoritative manner tried to teach me some rules telling me:
Listen, you are Europeans now yes or no? Life in Europe is expensive. You are not Africans. In Africa one Negro more one Negro less-who cares?

[Paphitis]

In all honesty, I totally love Greece. The people are great and it is extremely pretty.

It's my retirement home, and I say this to tell you how much I value the country. I also feel at home here in Greece as I write this.

But, why on earth would Cyprus want to be a province of Greece? Greece has many problems and I don't see how the situation can improve. It's not a country I would go to for any work whatsoever. Even in business its survival of the fittest and most businesses are after the tourist dollar selling touristy paraphinalia.

Having said that, I am always probing for little opportunities that would expedite my early retirement which I am striving for. If you got money, then you can make it happen.

Greece has been in very bad hands for the last 30 odd years. The old establishment is very conservative and very much behind the times. It's not a modern economy. The elites have been in power for their own selfish needs and not much gets done for the greater good. Corruption has been and still is rampant. Rubbish is piled up along the roadsides (a terrible shame for such a majestic place)

Fires were lit by Greeks in Zakynthos along the mountainside by property owners so that they can cut valuable plots which just goes to show how much respect there is by them for the environment and the country. If it happens there, then I do wonder about the Forrest fires through the Pelloponese.

It's very difficult getting things done, so imagine paying taxes when running a business or having to get a permit for something. It will take a long time unless you're in the know.

They also drive like lunatics because laws are not enforced. Even I do more illegal things in Greece and you don't feel scared because you know the cops won't do a thing. It's a sad fact that as human beings, when you know there is no enforcement then a different mentality takes over (going through red lights, illegal u turns, double parking etc etc)

There are laws, but as I said, they are not enforced like they are in other countries so in the end you have many people who just don't give a stuff.

Greece is absolutely great in other respects but as a country, it is way behind the rest of the world including Cyprus.

[Paphitis]

But everyone still thinks the grass is greener on the other side. I have lost count at how many Greeks think I am crazy for wanting to retire in Greece. I only intend on working for another 10 years and have enough residual incomes to make that happen. I am not a greedy person and am quite lazy too. But every Greek is asking me what it's like in Australia, and even Saudi (I have made a lot of sacrifices in my life) so just imagine how tough it is for the average Joe, especially the young to be asking about the Sandpit in KSA.

For the last few years I think about the simpler things in life but I still want to be active - maybe work some fields or growing some produce to past the time and a bit of pocket money and fresh air plus exercise and stimulation. The rest of the time, maybe play a Komboloi, play Tavli at the Kafene, argue with other Greeks, drink Frappe, swim, hike, or whatever it is I want to do.