Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

The US Government has an increasing debt to the banks currently to the tune of around $18trn ($18,000,000,000,000) ............... if they were not the creators of the debt, where did the banks get $18trn from?

No,it's not debt to the Banks.

I actually understand your point on the creation of money, our basic disagreement is that those money is not really profit for the Bank, it is just increase in turnover, and if that loan-dept procedure goes on increasing non stop there will be a time the Bank will default.There are various regulatory bodies that control these things. I also disagree on how the Banks make a start on the first place. Perhaps you should read the requirement to start a Bank.

I also disagree with you that Varoufakis or Tsipras knew anything special about money.
Tsipras said the EZ got actually prepared for the eventuality of the revolting and going back to drachma, and they were actually planning to destroy them completely? How? I don't know, he didn't tell. I assume they would perhaps declare the drachma non exchangeable to Euro until Greece has paid their debts.

[Nikitas]

Jean Paul Juncker in Cyprus today said:

"Tough decisions and commitment paid off in Cyprus, as they did in Ireland, Portugal and Spain. I hope that others will take note."

Wonder who he had been hinting at! As per the Greek saying, he is talking to the wife but really speaking to the mother in law.

[Pyrpolizer]

Jean Paul Juncker in Cyprus today said:

"Tough decisions and commitment paid off in Cyprus, as they did in Ireland, Portugal and Spain. I hope that others will take note."

Wonder who he had been hinting at! As per the Greek saying, he is talking to the wife but really speaking to the mother in law.

They did? How? Where's the development?

the Government here survived due to heavy taxation however the problem here was never the Government finances. It was and still is the Banks. 68% of Co-op's loans are still non performing.

The "measures" will actually show their ugly face as soon as the Banks here start expropriating people's homes.
The "measures" in Greece will show their ugly face as soon as the Lenders start expropriating the State's property.

What's the difference

[repulsewarrior]

it will continue to be an OXI!


http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-bl ... tless/4197

What this means is very simple: the third bailout agreed in principle on Sunday night is doomed to fail. First because the IMF cannot sign up to it without debt relief; second because, without debt relief it will collapse the Greek economy. This is even before you factor in issues like mass resistance to its details, or the total lack of enthusiasm for execution of the deal by the Syriza ministers who will have to do it.

Brussels keeps twisting the arm of the Greeks, the Greek government continues to agree to the bailout but there is a catch. No laws are implemented and no Greek wants to obey, how tragic...good for them

All other south European countries were in the same predicament they obeyed and now are headed towards economic recovery even Cyprus. The point is, why should they obey?... The Eu wants to create efficient productive competitive economies that will integrate into one homogenous unit that will have 500,000,000 citizens and be an economic juggernaut. The Greeks are not obeying and this brings into question the whole unit, because if one unit doesn't play by the rules and Brussels can't reign them in, then the whole unit looses its effectiveness and could collapse. The Eu and the Germans want the Greeks to become like them(productiveefficienteconomiccitizens), where two bit lawyers are revered for defending drunks more so then a dishwasher working 18 hr days to feed his kids) for their supposed betterment...Why should they? If you look at it from another perspective the Greeks are forcing the rest of the European Union to question their path and in the end,again, its the Greeks who will force change on the ones forcing change on them..I equate it to a Master Martial artist who gives his knowledge to a student, the student leaves thinking he has mastered the art comes back to challenge the Master but is quickly placed in a headlock...the Eu and the Germans need more lessons.

...well said Ocean. Indeed, Greece must take this opportunity to rebuild herself, to jettison what is wasteful, to root out the corruption, for herself, not for "Germans", to establish a way of living that suits her people, and to do so in a manner that others (read: not just Humanity but for the people of Europe) can see a benefit worthy of emulation, with dignity, and Grace.

It is not for the lenders to have an exclusive right from the contract that was made between them and Greece, simply because there exists the question of onerous debt. This question will not disappear, so long as the debt is to be paid. The "Germans" are not out of the woods so to speak, and their sentiment toward "Europe" makes them suspect, since they are unable to confront what possessed "the banks", their Banks, to lend this money over decades. The sooner Greece pays this debt, the sooner the issues this debt raises (for "Europe") are swept under a rug; lol.

...and what of the (madness of the) IMF which suggest they borrow even more money?

[Nikitas]

To quote arch anti Memo hero Tsipras: "show me the realistic alternatives and I will implement them".

The anti austerity or the pro drachma crowd have yet to offer a realistic alternative.

Tsipras in his interview two nights ago described how he tried all alternatives, including asking Russia, China and the BRICS club for help that was not provided. He played the geopolitical card and the pipeline game, and that did not pan out. In the end he realised that there was no alternative.

If the debt disappeared intantly today, Greece would be in insurmountable debt again within a short time for the same reasons it is in debt now: it is hostile to enterprise which is the major employment and wealth builder and taxation source.

The irony is that none of this would have happened if back in 2010 it had been willing to dismiss 100 000 civil servants. It chose to overtax the private sector instead causing 1.3 million unemployed. Statism won over enterprise and it still insists on that tack, announcing more taxes on business when neighboring countries lower them.

[miltiades]

Greek Banks could reopen this coming Monday after the ECB granted Greece 900 million Euros.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... reek-banks

The European commission, one of three creditors to Greece along with the IMF and the ECB, also announced it had put together a €7bn bridging loan for Athens.

[Nikitas]

Interesting example given yesterday re business taxation on firms making more than 500 000 profit

regular tax 145 000
deposit 100 per cent of tax 145 000
tax on trader status and land tax (if it owns land) 25 000
mandatory reserves 25 000

The net effect is 80 per cent tax. The dividend is taxed at 10 per cent out of which the shareholders must also pay social insurance.

All neighboring countries have a flat corporate tax between 0 (FYROM) and 12 per cent (Cyprus).

The place needs an overhaul. Fast

[Oceanside50]

it will continue to be an OXI!


http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-bl ... tless/4197

What this means is very simple: the third bailout agreed in principle on Sunday night is doomed to fail. First because the IMF cannot sign up to it without debt relief; second because, without debt relief it will collapse the Greek economy. This is even before you factor in issues like mass resistance to its details, or the total lack of enthusiasm for execution of the deal by the Syriza ministers who will have to do it.

Brussels keeps twisting the arm of the Greeks, the Greek government continues to agree to the bailout but there is a catch. No laws are implemented and no Greek wants to obey, how tragic...good for them

All other south European countries were in the same predicament they obeyed and now are headed towards economic recovery even Cyprus. The point is, why should they obey?... The Eu wants to create efficient productive competitive economies that will integrate into one homogenous unit that will have 500,000,000 citizens and be an economic juggernaut. The Greeks are not obeying and this brings into question the whole unit, because if one unit doesn't play by the rules and Brussels can't reign them in, then the whole unit looses its effectiveness and could collapse. The Eu and the Germans want the Greeks to become like them(productiveefficienteconomiccitizens), where two bit lawyers are revered for defending drunks more so then a dishwasher working 18 hr days to feed his kids) for their supposed betterment...Why should they? If you look at it from another perspective the Greeks are forcing the rest of the European Union to question their path and in the end,again, its the Greeks who will force change on the ones forcing change on them..I equate it to a Master Martial artist who gives his knowledge to a student, the student leaves thinking he has mastered the art comes back to challenge the Master but is quickly placed in a headlock...the Eu and the Germans need more lessons.

...well said Ocean. Indeed, Greece must take this opportunity to rebuild herself, to jettison what is wasteful, to root out the corruption, for herself, not for "Germans", to establish a way of living that suits her people, and to do so in a manner that others (read: not just Humanity but for the people of Europe) can see a benefit worthy of emulation, with dignity, and Grace.

It is not for the lenders to have an exclusive right from the contract that was made between them and Greece, simply because there exists the question of onerous debt. This question will not disappear, so long as the debt is to be paid. The "Germans" are not out of the woods so to speak, and their sentiment toward "Europe" makes them suspect, since they are unable to confront what possessed "the banks", their Banks, to lend this money over decades. The sooner Greece pays this debt, the sooner the issues this debt raises (for "Europe") are swept under a rug; lol.

...and what of the (madness of the) IMF which suggest they borrow even more money?

RW...the article below points out the fear that the Greek debt has brought onto European leaders and their worst fears. Theres an anomaly in this whole thing that has brought the Eu to the brink. Enslaving people to insurmountable debt in order to reign them in to a path that the northern Europeans want may bring the whole charade of European Union crashing down. Its not about corruption, like you say, but something deeper that the northern Europeans could not have imagined. The tone may be, unburden us of this burdening debt or your project comes tumbling down.

http://www.businessinsider.com/europe-w ... ong-2015-7

If Greece goes wrong — it can still default on its new debts, which International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde on Friday said was "categorically" not viable — then the equivalents of Greece's left-wing Syriza party are waiting elsewhere in Europe: Podemos in Spain and the Five Star Movement in Italy. Why shouldn't they stage their own revolutions against the EU? It sure sounds better than following the Greek path.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/europe-w ... z3gA7ClB4w

The conservatives are proved correct about the way the EU takes away national sovereignty: The Greeks voted in a referendum to reject the bailout ... but were forced to accept it anyway.
And the leftists are proved correct about the way the banks control everything and everyone else gets screwed: The Greek economy has been brought to its knees by debt, provided first by private investment banks such as Goldman Sachs and then by Europe's ruling German-French elite in the IMF and the EU. The entire bailout is structured to benefit the lending banks the most, not the people of Greece.
Suddenly the tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists look as if they were right all along!

This is the environment into which British Prime Minister David Cameron is calling for a national in/out referendum on the EU in the UK next year.

He couldn't have picked a worse time.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/europe-w ... z3gA7YycuE

The lessons that will be learned from all of this, will eventually be connected to how Greece reacts to this new round of bailouts.

[Robin Hood]

This is a fairly long video but well worth watching. It is understandable and gives the background to the questionable way the TROIKA has acted since 2010 in Greece mainly but also other EZ countries. It covers their involvement in Cyprus at about 1h 17m ..... that was an eye opener ....... I didn't realise this until seeing the video.

The Trail of the Troika - A must-see documentary to understand the situation in Greece.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42394.htm

[Robin Hood]

Pyrolyser

No,it's not debt to the Banks.

You are partially correct as it could be such institutions as Pension Funds and Insurance Companies that own some of the Bonds as capital investment, that are the collateral for the loan. But I think you will find that when another Government buys bonds it does it through the Central Bank and then the commercial banks. The debt is owed to the banks ....... like happened in Cyprus.

I actually understand your point on the creation of money, our basic disagreement is that those money is not really profit for the Bank, it is just increase in turnover, and if that loan-dept procedure goes on increasing non stop there will be a time the Bank will default. There are various regulatory bodies that control these things. I also disagree on how the Banks make a start on the first place. Perhaps you should read the requirement to start a Bank.

We are not really that far apart!

It is definitely not a profit for the bank ........ I did make that point. The banks create it and destroy it; they see no profit from the capital amount. Their only profit is from the interest.

Yes .... we agree, if the procedure goes on increasing the money supply then eventually the banks will collapse (It is a Ponzi scheme and the end game is predictable!) Regulatory bodies do go a way to limiting abuse but, unfortunately they are mostly controlled by the banks they regulate.

I don’t think I have made comment on what is required to start a bank. I assume a lot of money ..... mainly raised by shares.

What I am trying to get across is that the very first loan ever made by a bank under the fractional reserve system was the first debt that did not have wealth of an equal value to back it. At that time it was gold ...... but that first loan issued a Promissory Note that was fraudulent as it was not backed by anything of value. Once the recipient paid it into his account it became real spendable money. The whole money ‘out of thin air’ creation process started with that single fractional reserve credit line and that method has expanded the bulk of the money supply to the quadrillions in circulation today.

I also disagree with you that Varoufakis or Tsipras knew anything special about money.

I think you are wrong there about YV. Whether Tsipras was anything other than the media attractive young family man at the helm, is debatable. Watch the video ......... YV points out in 2010 (before Syriza achieved government) almost exactly what happened in Greece once Syriza got into government.

Tsipras said the EZ got actually prepared for the eventuality of the revolting and going back to drachma, and they were actually planning to destroy them completely? How? I don't know, he didn't tell. I assume they would perhaps declare the drachma non exchangeable to Euro until Greece has paid their debts.

That is exactly what the video explains ................. and what happened in Cyprus with the sell-off of the Greek branches of Laiki and BoC is nothing short of outright thievery. If those that suffered the loss of their money in the ‘bail-in’ knew that €3.5bn went straight to an Ex Cyprus bank now owned by a Greek Banker ..... who incidentally had a €150 NPL with Laiki ...... that was written off days after he acquired the bank, they would lynch him!

What are your views on a New Drachma either as a replacement for the Euro or run as a parallel currency?