Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

The reason that there is not much mention of EU human rights is because the issue is covered by the Council of Europe accords which is something totally different to the EU. The European Court of Human Rights applies the European Charter of Human Rights, NOT EU principles.

As for the notion that post solution there will be no demarcation lines, I have my reservations. It is hard to see how the TC insistence on strict bizonality can be maintained with no clear demarcation lines and legal tools to enforce it. The mention above of today's Kipris headline (We cannot accept 100 000 GCs returning) is indicative of TC attitudes.

Now, as we get to the "hard" negotiation of territory and properties there will be revelations of the true nature of the issue. The bottom line on these issues is to propose "giving" the dead zone to the GCs, returning very little territory or properties and shifting the issue to "compensation" the cost of which will be financed mostly by the GCs themselves.

We are back to the Annan problem which one GC newspaper put as "being asked to accept non return of properties and pay our own compensation".

Nazmi in today's Politis paper proposes involving banks, presumably GC banks, in the compensation process, indirectly saying that the whole of the GC community will bear the cost of indemnifying GC property owners.

The only thing missing is to have Turkey ask for compensation for the invasion costs.

If the only incentive to a solution is the above, ie not much different than the situation as is now, expect another OXI.

Are we talking for the same interview??
http://www.politis-news.com/cgibin/hweb ... V=articles

Basically what he says is that the property rights are recognized however they want to put restrictions in how anyone could exercise them.
He implies that one could not exercise them, unless he goes to some sort of IPC. The is bullshit and if he expects anyone to accept his property rights to be taken away like that, he better go have a nap for another 50 years.

[Nikitas]

Yes, that is the interview I read earlier today.

What is not clear to me is the following: have the TCs surrendered their individual property rights in the RoC to the TC "government"? If that has happened then the negotiation is a bit of a sham. On one side there is consolidated and unitary "title", ie all properties of TCs in the south at the discretion of the negotiator and on the other the individual GC owners.

If the title is truly individual, and TCs are called to choose, as individuals, whether to retain or exchange their properties the situation will take on a whole different aspect, separating residence from ownership. Personally I cannot see many people voluntarily letting go of income producing properties in Larnaca, Paphos and Limassol in exchange for anything in the north. Yes, there is the exception of Kyrenia, but the GC population of Kyrenia was 10 000, the combined TC population that left the cities in the south is much larger. Meaning that if a large number of TCs refuse to let go of their titles in these areas the exchange idea starts to look a little shaky.

I remember Eroglu proposing a joint property managing company to "develop" TC properties in the south, for the "benefit of both communities", while retaining the expropriated GC properties in the north. Was it the same negotiator, Namil, who had handled that proposal?

[Pyrpolizer]

Nikitas it's upto them to find ways to solve the problems their illegalities have caused all these years. It's not only the problem of the TCs that were donated properties for nothing (e.g by taking points for being TMT heroes) it's also the problem of distributing stolen properties to the settlers as well as the selling of stolen properties for peanuts to the carpetbaggers. Do they really expect the GCs to give away their rights for the purpose of legalizing the illegalities they were doing all these years??
If their purpose was always to find a solution (as they falsely want us to believe)they should have thought of all those illegalities earlier. Tora as kopsoun tin kelle tous.

[Nikitas]

Pyro my friend, I understand you 100 per cent!

But, there is the international community and what to them might appear "reasonable". The communication aspect of any proposal has to be taken into account. It is not the deciding factor but a big factor. Nami is US trained and he knows these things. A proposal for a "joint property development" corporation sounds "reasonable" to those who are too lazy or too ingorant to search below the veneer and see the theft involved.

I have often pondered whether a more blunt approach would be more understandable to our "allies" in the Eu and elsewhere. Start the process by presenting a map and a properties scheme and say "accept this and we go on with the rest of it". Leaving this issue last seems to me unwise.

[Lordo]

Pyro my friend, I understand you 100 per cent!

But, there is the international community and what to them might appear "reasonable". The communication aspect of any proposal has to be taken into account. It is not the deciding factor but a big factor. Nami is US trained and he knows these things. A proposal for a "joint property development" corporation sounds "reasonable" to those who are too lazy or too ingorant to search below the veneer and see the theft involved.

I have often pondered whether a more blunt approach would be more understandable to our "allies" in the Eu and elsewhere. Start the process by presenting a map and a properties scheme and say "accept this and we go on with the rest of it". Leaving this issue last seems to me unwise.

only yesterday an announcement was made that they have so far gathered what was agreed and what needed to be negotiated. the negotiation will start on the 29th, and here you are regurgitating like old cow bessy something an opponent of the plan said in a newspaper which does not support the plan.

show me the clause that says compensation to gcs will be paid by the roc. what id does say is each state will pay its own compensation to the cypriots affected. sure the tcs have got an ace due to your embargoes. they were forced to exchange the tc titles in the south for gc titles in the north so they have most but not all the tc titles in the south which is why they are confident they will meet the compensation of the gcs. the original plan had 100,000 return to their own homes under the southern federal control. where does the new 100,000 has come from, is it from one of your hallucinogenic nights.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro my friend, I understand you 100 per cent!

But, there is the international community and what to them might appear "reasonable". The communication aspect of any proposal has to be taken into account. It is not the deciding factor but a big factor. Nami is US trained and he knows these things. A proposal for a "joint property development" corporation sounds "reasonable" to those who are too lazy or too ingorant to search below the veneer and see the theft involved.

I have often pondered whether a more blunt approach would be more understandable to our "allies" in the Eu and elsewhere. Start the process by presenting a map and a properties scheme and say "accept this and we go on with the rest of it". Leaving this issue last seems to me unwise.

only yesterday an announcement was made that they have so far gathered what was agreed and what needed to be negotiated. the negotiation will start on the 29th, and here you are regurgitating like old cow bessy something an opponent of the plan said in a newspaper which does not support the plan.

show me the clause that says compensation to gcs will be paid by the roc. what id does say is each state will pay its own compensation to the cypriots affected. sure the tcs have got an ace due to your embargoes. they were forced to exchange the tc titles in the south for gc titles in the north so they have most but not all the tc titles in the south which is why they are confident they will meet the compensation of the gcs. the original plan had 100,000 return to their own homes under the southern federal control. where does the new 100,000 has come from, is it from one of your hallucinogenic nights.

1)That someone was Nami in his interview..
2)That was in the Annan Plan. Nami has new funny ideas.
3)You embargoed yourself. Reminds me of a tief who stole a car and then complains he can't sell it he's been "embargoed". Until 1985 you used the Republics stamps to export freely. Then you declared your trashCan and threw away the stamps. YOU EMBARGOED yourselves. Do you know what "Ali ton dernoun 100 j'Ali ton dernei o nous tou" means? Roughly translated "Ali (says) he's been beaten by 100s yet Ali is be beaten by his own brain"
4)Never you heard it's illegal to exchange anything without the exchangee's consent? Let me exchange my old Toyota with your new Porche
5)Again that was from Nami's interview.

[Nikitas]

"sure the tcs have got an ace due to your embargoes"

No. The TCs have an ace, as explained by Eroglu some months ago, because their properties in the south were NOT nationalised. And for not nationalising properties Eroglu's idea was that the GCs would be rewarded by forfeiting their properties in the north, due to nationalisation, while the TC properties in the south would come under the control of a joint property company and be developed for the benefit of "ALL" Cypriots. He never explained why the same should not happen with GC properties in the north, them being nationalised and all! This was the most cynical admission of the "masters of the north partners in the south" idea ever!

What Nami described is not as bad, but not much better. He sees banks, ie our banks, being involved along with IOUs and such, in effect by GC funds.

If the "nationalisation" card is to be used then the RoC should ask for a suspension of the European Human Rights charter, nationalise all TC properties and return to the negotiation with an equal advantage to the other side. It is not fair to burden one side with its human rights obligations and let the other side rely on precisely the opposite, human rights violations.

And once again, those of you who think that this BBF thing will be without borders and controls think again. There must be a way to control and monitor how many GCs will return to the north post solution. For that there must be demarcation lines and ID control, ie frontiers. The closer we get to the end game the more evident it is that BBF is partition with a polite name.

So why not call it that now and negotiate on an honest basis? That has been my puzzlement since 1977 when the BBF idea was officialised.

[B25]

Nikita, these talks are a Turkisg smoke screen. Once the north is legalised, recognised, Turkey will do its bit to finaly partition it. There is now way Turkey is letting go. We need to becareful not to let down our guard because the moment we do we will feel it up the backside.

BBF, Partion, two states, separation is all the same, the Turks are playing to get recognition and then we can be sure of a final partition. Mark my words and let us talk again in a few years time.

[Maximus]

There is no agreement coming because the TC's and Turkeys agenda has not changed.

This shit gets tiring, they wont be reasonable until Turkeys power wanes but then it will be too late. They will either accept reason or scram from the north on the next armada of flotilla's to mersin.

[Kikapu]

And once again, those of you who think that this BBF thing will be without borders and controls think again. There must be a way to control and monitor how many GCs will return to the north post solution. For that there must be demarcation lines and ID control, ie frontiers. The closer we get to the end game the more evident it is that BBF is partition with a polite name.

With BBF, there will be "borders" which will outline the state lines, but not necessarily have controls at state lines. In the US main land, one can drive from state to state without going through any controls, although, some states do have controls for commercial vehicles but not for private. California has agricultural inspection at ALL of its Stateline crossings with neighbouring states. This is to prevent from people bringing in fruit from neighbouring states so to control insects that could damage the agricultural industry.

If population control in each states is agreed on, then all they need to do is to have the people living in those states to register themselves with the local council, as we do here in Switzerland, even though we do not have population control what so ever. This way we have clear picture as to who lives where.

If BBF is set up as True Federation as in the US, then I do not see BBF as a partition, due to checks & balances that will come with it from the Federal Government. That's why Annan Plan was and is loved by ALL the partitionist, including Denktash, despite his so called being against the AP. Yeah right. In pig’s ear, I say.

The way to discourage the north from ever thinking of any partition in the future is to reduce the north’s territory by 50% from what it is now. This will serve two purposes. One is to keep the north state in the union and the second is to give the TCs a greater political control in the north, since most of the GC refugee’s properties will then be in the southern state. This will build a lot of trust between all Cypriots if these were to happen. If it doesn't happen, then I can't see the GCs agreeing to any kind of a settlement with the TCs, especially if the Turkey also remains a guarantee power. It will only be a matter of time before "false flag" operations start again.