Cyprus-Forum.com

[Lordo]

too late iben i niffi du gachari.

they could have waited till after the agreement, why so fast after the vote would have been fine too. what veto you mean at the federal level ah thats another matter. how else can you have political equality. hang an a minute me old china what is wrong with the european way of working. all 27 have the veto. by all means give the other minorities the veto at the federal lavel too. the more the merrier.

[Maximus]

...why assume that there is a veto? what veto could exist if there is a Federal Government representing its Citizens as Individuals, without any further discrimination or distinction. What veto among Constituencies, that just doesn't make sense.

RW, I don't need to assume, just look at bordo's last reply "what veto you mean at the federal level ah thats another matter. how else can you have political equality."

its been the Turkish position since day dot.

can you refer me to a single credible source that says otherwise?

[repulsewarrior]

yes, it's true, by taking the standpoint (where is vp?) of the brash patriot, Lordo says what he says, and it winds up the same reaction too. Why not ignore his observations, express your own thoughts and remember he is doing all of us a favour, a better adversary would be the real ones themselves.

Interestingly, we should all 'get it' by now. While the overwhelming (on the island) are Greek in origin, those who choose to consider Cyprus, something like a possession are far greater. Our chance is as Cypriots, being Greek requires a Greek Constituency, like a Turkish Constituency because as Persons we seek to sustain these distinct identities, only as Cypriots is it possible, only if as Individuals we choose to say, not Greek, not Armenian, not (place an Ethnic Origin here). Cypriots can sustain an ethnos, their ethnos. Greeks as Greeks must sustain their own ethnography, so too the other Cypriot Constituencies.

...but indeed, it is the intention where all this Problem begins.

It requires from Anastasiades his firm position, to be, the President of Cypriots, not the "Hellenic" representative. He must call for the "birth" if you will of a Greek Constituency so that Greeks as Greeks have a voice when it is as Constituents that Cypriots meet, because it is not him as such. It requires from Akinci to stand in front of the Flag of Cyprus, when he welcomes his counterparts. It would not be difficult to imagine that men who are Cypriots representing Constituencies will not derive common and equal needs. It is not hard to imagine their consideration a powerful tool toward the Constitutional reform that Cyprus, and it's President, must make, for Cypriots.

[Nikitas]

The matters regarded as Federal include major roads, ports, airports, our EU presence and therefore EU derived finances, foreign policy, energy, natural resources and that is just the start.

A look at the above shows that the autonomy of the regions is a lot less than presented. Try to run tourism in the south without adequate power generation and see what happens. Try to sell gas exploration rights to the highest bidder, which might not be Turkey or Greece, and see what happens.

And I will tell you something else, any time the GC side vetoes it will be denounced as intransigent or chauvinist, when the TCs veto it will be projected as an act of self defence by the minority. They know how to change role, from minority to equal partner when the situation suits them.

As for the guarantees, is it possible for anyone to guarantee one region of a federation without guaranteeting the whole federal structure?

And once again, anyone care to explain to myself and others who are confused, what is the difference between BBF and partition?

[Lordo]

bbf has one identity, one foreign policy, one citizenship and two federal states. run your own affairs at the state level and political equality at the federal level. in exactly the same was as little oll cyprus has equal power as germany in the eu. cyprus will be based on the eu exactly. with derogations to protect the tc identity and culture. we can be in and out of what ever we choose from the eu law. as you can see the brits are about to pull out of the eu human rights law and do their own. what the hell is wrong with that. it is allowed and legal. the eu citizens who are not british will not be allowed to vote in the referendum either.

not a first in the world and will not be the last. i hope you do not need me to explain what a division is.

oh ok then this is division ÷

[Nikitas]

"run your own affairs" is the bit I do not get. Already there are unofficial agreements (per Akinci today) for unifying the electric grid, the mobile phone networks and the radio frequencies. How does a business that does not want to have anything to do with the other side run its own affairs when its energy price is governed by these deals?

The BBF thing is an illusion, I doubt that there can be a totally autonomous regional life and a separate federal and "other" regional life. Ask people who live in federations and they will tell you. Ask any American what it means to fill an IRS tax form, and you will realise that there is no such thing as "regional autonomy" when the same hand goes into all citizens' pockets.

In other words BBF in our case will be something other than federation if we insist on regional autonomy and long term bizonality. And I am curious to see what they will present this time round.

How far the British will get with their unilateral derogations is debatable. In addition to the EU laws there is the binding Council of Europe convention that does not allow derogations or sidestepping deals. Most of the EU human rights regime is based on CoE inviolable rules. Voting is not part of the human rights regime. Cypriots voting as commonwealth residents predates the EU.

[umit07]

In other words BBF in our case will be something other than federation if we insist on regional autonomy and long term bizonality. And I am curious to see what they will present this time round.

The TC point of view of a BFF is exactly as you have described, long term bizonality and a high degree of regional autonomy, the GC perspective on such a "solution" is that by accepting such terms they are effectively legitimising the consequences of the Turkish invasion. I can understand this but unfortunatley it is the situation we are in, I cannot see any common ground.

[Lordo]

there is common ground, and it is building fast. both akel and dissy and the president are backing these talks and will back this vote too. your time is up.................

[Nikitas]

The general goal for most Cypriots is to avoid a repeat of 1963 and 1974, and for that they are prepared to agree to BBF.

In practice they will see that the now equal minority will not be content to stay within its region and be happy with their autonomy. Bizonality cannot be long sustained when the major business centers are all in one region, not by design, they always were, and if Famagusta opens up then all major employment centers will be in the south, south Nicosia, Limassol, Famagusta, Larnaca. There will be a daily influx of people to work there and soon they will want to live where they work, which is natural, and the result will be a new "minority" in the south and we are back to square one. One salient question is will there also be a new minority in the north?

I want to see how they will try to prevent this natural erosion of the bicommunal and bizonal aspect of BBF.

Akinci is from Limassol, he visits his home town, he can see that this one city is the economic equivalent of the whole north. He knows TCs will move there in time.

Imagining the future as a static situation contained within artificial divisions is not so wise especially for an island inhabited by educated ambitious people.

[repulsewarrior]

Indeed, it is not Greek or Turkish that the young are quick to learn, but English. What is natural will evolve with Free Movement, and Free Association, there will be minorities within the context of majorities, who choose as Freely as anyone else, to express their own distinct identity. Bicommunal is very hopeful in my mind, because there is a Cyprus, that beside defining it as a set of Persons, Cypriots see themselves as Cypriots, first.