Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

NATO has made a difference!

90% reduction in crossings last month.

It's the only material contribution the Greek Government have received. The alliance is stronger than ever which is more than can be said of the EU!

It's over Robin Hood! You will no longer be fed on this forum just like you were banished or self exiled from 2 other forums because everyone had enough of your stupidities and obessions.

You should head back to Cyprus Expat where I am sure all your friends would be happy to hear from you again.'

And btw, Greece's Military is vitally important to the NATO alliance. I think you have a very simplistic mind to suggest Turkey will automatically outgun the Greek Military. Firstly, look at how the Greek Military is poised. It is built to defend Greece's borders so Turkey will need to come out into the Aegean in order to fight Greece and that is no easy task when you analyse Greece Naval strength and the geography. Greece has a great surface combatant fleet and submarines, which will just position themselves in narrow straights waiting quietly. The Air Force will control the Airspace and the only place Turkey can invade is through Thrace across the Danube River, which means their forces will be choked in 2 or 3 bottle neck points.

The Australian Navy visit Greece every year and are regularly escorted by Hellenic Naval ships. It's a vital ally which Australia is very happy to regard as a close friend. No one in Australia blatantly disregards the might of the Hellenic Armed Forces.



If Greece gets itself into trouble, we would be very happy to provide Greece with all the support it needs as a NATO ally ourselves. We've done it before, and many Australians are buried in Greece. We would do it again! And we can project power across the globe now. And we are about to go Nuclear as well with our French partners! So in a $50 Billion deal. 12 Baracuda shortfin Submarines on the way. Putin can eat shit!

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

It's over Robin Hood! You will no longer be fed on this forum just like you were banished or self exiled from 2 other forums because everyone had enough of your stupidities and obessions.

You seem to be the only member complaining!

So you are so interested in me you have been doing a bit of research? Banished ...... no, I just came up against another ignorant person like you! Unlike you, he had brains but was unbelievably sarcastic (one thing I cannot cope with) ..... but just like you, he objected to anyone that knew more than he did. Many quit after me and the site no longer debates anything of substance.

You have now appointed yourself as the forum spokesman then? I started a thread primarily on economic domination by the Elite and it has had 8538 votes to date ..... so, although the subject is way beyond your comprehension there are others, like me, who find the subject interesting and realise its impact.

I admit to it being of great interest to me as I see he implications because I have the knowledge you don’t. As I have said to you before I am smarter than you on that subject ..... much smarter.

[Paphitis]

I am protecting forumers from your trolling and insantities.

All you talk about is this:
1) Banking and Finance,
2) Pootin and Assad,
3) you are dead set against the Western Alliance whether that be NATO, USA, Australia and co (Japan and South Korea) as well as any other client state like Saudi Arabia.

Oh and you get all your material from dubious sources and marginalized non mainstream bloggers with an anti West or extreme Left Wing agenda. You want all the West's Institutions to crumble and be destroyed but it aint gonna happen because the West is 2 steps ahead of the game. Even if the Americans go all nutso with Trump and become isolationist. our strength is in our numbers and through our allies, from Japan, to Australia, from UAE to Germany, from Holland to Canada, from France to Italy.

What you don't understand is that we don't dictate. We give latitude and understand reform occurs at a rapid pace without us having to do a single thing. The important thing for us and our economies, is that these countries are stable, and that they aren't killing each other like we see in Syria. We need to tread carefully ourselves, and its not as if everything we interfere with works out for the best. We have a tendency to wreck places because we don't understand and make the mistake that everyone is the same as us when they are not.

In addition, your anti Greece rants and insults will not go down well at all. Greece is an ally in NATO. We don't give a rats that they have a Communist Government. Our alliance is a very broad church and we are tolerant and Greece has all the support it needs from its NATO allies. Greece is a protected species.

It's over Robin Hood. It's over. Time to pack it in.

Your trolling is no longer welcome. We're not gonna feed your obsessions anymore...

[erolz66]

NATO has made a difference!

90% reduction in crossings last month.

It's the only material contribution the Greek Government have received. The alliance is stronger than ever which is more than can be said of the EU!

http://frontex.europa.eu/news/number-of ... ril-6e7oBw

The number of migrants arriving on the Greek islands in April plunged by 90% compared to the previous month, reaching fewer than 2 700. The drop is a result of several factors, including The EU-Turkey agreement and stricter border policies applied by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia at its border with Greece.

[Paphitis]

NATO has made a difference!

90% reduction in crossings last month.

It's the only material contribution the Greek Government have received. The alliance is stronger than ever which is more than can be said of the EU!

http://frontex.europa.eu/news/number-of ... ril-6e7oBw

The number of migrants arriving on the Greek islands in April plunged by 90% compared to the previous month, reaching fewer than 2 700. The drop is a result of several factors, including The EU-Turkey agreement and stricter border policies applied by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia at its border with Greece.

None of it would be possible without NATO Taskforce SNMG2. That is the killer deterrent. Without it, just forget it!

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_128657.htm

The media can say what it wants, but if it were not for NATO, and Greek Coast Guard and Hellenic Navy then they are pissing in the wind.

It's the detection rate that is the ultimate deterrent.

[erolz66]

The media can say what it wants, but if it were not for NATO, and Greek Coast Guard and Hellenic Navy then they are pissing in the wind.

It's the detection rate that is the ultimate deterrent.

Frontex is not 'the media' by the way.

So you thesis is that the deployment of one flagship (German) and 3 frigates, one of which is Greek and one of which is Turkish has led to a 90% reduction of migrants arriving in Greece. If you are right that this is all that is needed to stem the flow of migrants by such a dramatic amount, you then have to wonder why Greece in 2015, that has 13 Frigates in it's own navy, was unable to stem the flow then ?

You want to believe that NATO is the only body that has provided any effective help to Greece re dealing with the migrant crisis but my opinion is this belief of yours is just not supported by the evidence.

[Paphitis]

The media can say what it wants, but if it were not for NATO, and Greek Coast Guard and Hellenic Navy then they are pissing in the wind.

It's the detection rate that is the ultimate deterrent.

Frontex is not 'the media' by the way.

So you thesis is that the deployment of one flagship (German) and 3 frigates, one of which is Greek and one of which is Turkish has led to a 90% reduction of migrants arriving in Greece. If you are right that this is all that is needed to stem the flow of migrants by such a dramatic amount, you then have to wonder why Greece in 2015, that has 13 Frigates in it's own navy, was unable to stem the flow then ?

You want to believe that NATO is the only body that has provided any effective help to Greece re dealing with the migrant crisis but my opinion is this belief of yours is just not supported by the evidence.

NATO is the enforcer!

They are not an EU agency, and nor do they want bribe money like Turkey does. Nor does NATO need the accolades like the EU. It is a non political organisation, but an alliance block between many countries. They don't send Press Releases every day like FRONTEX do.

It is always there, in the background guaranteeing peace and security in Europe and yes, it is the presence of NATO which is the lynch pin.

And NATO ships are now providing real-time information to the coastguards of Greece and Turkey, as well as to the EU’s border agency Frontex.

And yesterday I was visiting the NATO flagship of the NATO deployment in the Aegean Sea. And I saw that our collective efforts are making a real difference. There has been a significant reduction in the number of people crossing the Aegean from Turkey to Greece. And NATO is helping counter criminal networks, secure our borders and save lives. And NATO is working with the EU closer than ever before. And I welcome this enhanced cooperation between NATO and the EU as we see it now take place in the Aegean.

And I thank Greece for contributing ships to our deployment in the Aegean and for the excellent cooperation and coordination between NATO, Greece and the EU

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_130341.htm

[supporttheunderdog]

The Following are relevant links
​
[url]http://frontex.europa.eu/[\url]
(FRONTEX WEBSITE)​

[url]http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/About_Frontex/frontex_regulation_en.pdf/[\url]
COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 2007/2004 of 26 October 2004 establishing a European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External
Borders of the Member States of the European Union
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/pd ... ted_en.pdf[\url]
COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 2007/2004 of 26 October 2004 establishing a European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External
Borders of the Member States of the European Union (OJ L 349, 25.11.2004, p. 1)
Amended by: M1 Regulation (EC) No 863/2007 of the European Parliament and of the
Council of 11 July 2007 L 199 30 31.7.2007 M2 Regulation (EU) No 1168/2011 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 L 304 1 22.11.2011
[url]http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32011R1168[\url]
REGULATION (EU) No 1168/2011 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 25 October 2011 amending Council Regulation (EC) No 2007/2004 establishing a European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders of the Member States of the European Union
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 32007R0863[\url]
REGULATION (EC) No 863/2007 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 11 July 2007 establishing a mechanism for the creation of Rapid Border Intervention Teams and amending Council Regulation (EC) No 2007/2004 as regards that mechanism and regulating the tasks and powers of guest officers
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 037:EN:PDF[\url]
COUNCIL REGULATION (EU) No 1053/2013 of 7 October 2013 establishing an evaluation and monitoring mechanism to verify the application of the Schengen acquis and repealing the Decision of the Executive Committee of 16 September 1998 setting up a Standing Committee on the evaluation and implementation of Schengen
(LAW)

[url]http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/e-library/documents/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/docs/eighth_biannual_report_on_the_functioning_of_the_schengen_area_en.pdf[url]
COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE COUNCIL Eighth biannual report on the functioning of the Schengen area 15.12.2015 COM(2015) 675 final
[url]http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-174_en.htm[\url]
European Commission - Press release
Commission discusses draft Schengen Evaluation Report on Greece
Brussels, 27 January 2016
[url]http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-211_en.htm[\url]
European Commission - Press release
Commission adopts Schengen Evaluation Report on Greece and proposes recommendations to address deficiencies in external border management Strasbourg, 2 February 2016
[url]http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/12-schengen-evaluation-of-greece/[\url]
Schengen evaluation of Greece: Council adopts recommendation to address deficiencies in external borders 12/02/2016
[url]http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-5985-2016-INIT/en/pdf[\url]
Council Implementing Decision setting out a Recommendation on
addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation of the
application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the
external borders by Greece 12/02/2016
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/docs/communication-back-to-schengen-roadmap_en.pdf[\url]
COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE EUROPEAN
PARLIAMENT, THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL AND THE COUNCIL
Back to Schengen - A Roadmap 4.3.2016 COM(2016) 120 final
[url]http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1344_en.htm[\url]
European Commission - Press release
Implementing the Roadmap Back to Schengen: Commission assesses Action Plan prepared by Greece 12 April 2016 [url]http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/proposal-implementation-package/docs/20160412/communication_assessment_greece_action_plan_en.pdf[\url]
COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE COUNCIL
Assessment of Greece's Action Plan to remedy the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation on the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external border 12.4.2016 COM(2016) 220 final
[url]http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1627_en.htm[\url]
Back to Schengen: Commission takes next steps towards lifting of temporary internal border controls Brussels, 4 May 2016
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/proposal-implementation-package/docs/20160504/schengen_proposal_en.pdf[\url]
Proposal for a COUNCIL IMPLEMENTING DECISION setting out a recommendation for temporary internal border control in exceptional
circumstances putting the overall functioning of the Schengen area at risk 4.5.2016 COM(2016) 275 final
[url]http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/05/12-internal-border-controls/[\url]
Council adopts recommendation for continuation of internal border controls 12/05/2016
[url]http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-8835-2016-INIT/en/pdf[\url]
Council Implementing Decision setting out a Recommendation for temporary internal border control in exceptional circumstances putting the overall functioning of the Schengen area at risk 12/05/2016

Everything relevant to the debate can be found here, or from links in the above cited documents

Gig's arguments are superficially attractive as there is an EU body called FRONTEX which has a role in border matters, and the EU regulations do talk about shared responsibility, but beyond that the points she makes are fallacious as she misrepresents both the role of FRONTEX and how responsibility was shared to the point that what went wrong was not the fault if Greece, as quite simply in her view Greece can do no wrong and its all an anti Greek plot.

The regulations governing FRONTEX can be found in EC2007/2004, as twice amended, in 2007 and 2011. They fully define the role of FRONTEX and how the sharing works. Principally the nation states are each responsible for their bit of the border with facilities for FRONTEX To coordinate bringing in assistance in case of situations as we have now. That was envisaged in the 2007 amendment to EC 2007/2004 setting up the Rapid interventions team. FRONTEX itself does not manage borders, or engage in Patrolling, and that is not changed by the fact they have an office on Greece, which is simply to provide a local base for them to perform their legally defined and restricted role.

It is all explained in less legal terms in FRONTEX website.

Gig has always sought with her usual techniques to try to avoid dealing with the facts, and what the law provides, simply because it does not fit in her world view.

The fact however still remains that that the EU has used words

The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in
the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of
appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient
staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents. Under the current
circumstances, situational awareness and reaction capability are not sufficient for efficient
border surveillance. These serious deficiencies relating to external border control constitute
a serious threat to public policy and internal security and put at risk the overall functioning
of the area without internal border control.

Now GIG - do you still sek to deny the EU has used these words?

serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece

I am not asking you to agree with them, merely that you agree they were used: you can do it with one word
YES, they were used
NO they were not.
I will take equivocation as as a YES. Otherwise Deny it you dare, in the face of the overwhelming evidence.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Erolz and STUD are the two who peddled the myth that the migrant crisis was ALL down to Greece's 'deficiencies' and 'failures in obligations' to controlling migrant influxes into the EU - and nobody else was to blame according to them, no shared responsibility by other EU members, even if they were present on Greek shores for years. They also refused to factor in what Turkey did had anything to do with creating the crisis.

Now there has been a reduction in migrants flows, they turn around and insist none of the alleviation of the crisis problem is the work of Greece. The good work, they want to purvey, is now all down to all these other agencies, and not Greece. They are probably still hoping for "sanctions" against Greece and maybe even their much-touted "expulsion" of Greece.

Seems all they want to do is denigrate Greece - damn Greece if it does anything or if it doesn't!

[supporttheunderdog]

That is a typical straw man argument and gig knows it.

She once again tries demonising us by attributing to us things we have never said.

That is what she does here, distortion, misrepresentation, and deception.


she is not correct when she claims we have peddled the myth that we have claimed Greece was responsiblecfor the Crises and I invited her to show where I have stepped beyond refering to the EU documents concerning the evaluation. I have bern very careful not to blame Greece for the migrant crises. Indeed i have defined the debate in terns of specific documents flowing from The November evalustion.

What Greece is to blame for are serious deficiencies that made the Aegean Route very attractive, namely the lack of border control which allowed them in to Schengen without being propely identified. Including the attackers in Paris and Brussels.



The BBC travelogue on Greece with gun totting priests etc had a short section on that, interviewing some Afganis who had crossed by sea, and who were letting their friends now how easy it was, to enter unregistered.

Here The EU made specific comments about specific aspects about how Greece' wad managing its external borders, in particular in the processing of people who land, which gig even here avoids conceding, where the EU Made 49 specific and 1 general recommendation, on 12th Feb, and on 4th and 12th May reported that while Greece had made progress some serious deficiencies still remain.

Again she fails address the evidence but repeats the same tired generalisations about her imagined role of FRONTEX and how the shared responsibility works, ignoring that it is set out in quite some detail in the FRONTEX website, as well as in legal terms in EC2007/2004.

Frontex has no mandate to patrol or control borders. This its mission

Frontex promotes, coordinates and develops European border management in line with the EU fundamental rights charter applying the concept of Integrated Border Management.

Frontex helps border authorities from different EU countries work together. Frontex’s full title is the European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders of the Member States of the European Union. The agency was set up in 2004 to reinforce and streamline cooperation between national border authorities. In pursuit of this goal, Frontex has several operational areas which are defined in the founding Frontex Regulation and a subsequent amendment. These areas of activity are:

Joint Operations — Frontex plans, coordinates, implements and evaluates joint operations conducted using Member States’ staff and equipment at the external borders (sea, land and air).

Training — Frontex is responsible for developing common training standards and specialist tools. These include the Common Core Curriculum, which provides a common entry-level training rationale for border guards across the Union, and mid- and high-level training for more senior officers.

Risk Analysis — Frontex collates and analyses intelligence on the ongoing situation at the external borders. These data are compiled from border crossing points and other operational information as well as from the Member States and open sources including mass media and academic research.

Research — Frontex serves as a platform to bring together Europe’s border-control personnel and the world of research and industry to bridge the gap between technological advancement and the needs of border control authorities.

Providing a rapid response capability — Frontex has created a pooled resource in the form of European Border Guard Teams (EBGT) and an extensive database of available equipment which brings together specialist human and technical resources from across the EU. These teams are kept in full readiness in case of a crisis situation at the external border.

Assisting Member States in joint return operations — When Member States make the decision to return foreign nationals staying illegally, who have failed to leave voluntarily, Frontex assists those Member States in coordinating their efforts to maximise efficiency and cost-effectiveness while also ensuring that respect for fundamental rights and the human dignity of returnees is maintained at every stage.

Information systems and information sharing environment — Information regarding emerging risks and the current state of affairs at the external borders form the basis of risk analysis and so-called “situational awareness” for border control authorities in the EU. Frontex develops and operates information systems enabling the exchange of such information, including the Information and Coordination Network established by Decision 2005/267/EC and European border surveillance system.

While fulfilling its mandate, Frontex liaises closely with other EU partners involved in the development of the area of Freedom, Security and Justice such as Europol, EASO, Eurojust, FRA or CEPOL, as well as with customs authorities in order to promote overall cohesion.

Frontex also works closely with the border-control authorities of non-EU/Schengen countries — mainly those countries identified as a source or transit route of irregular migration — in line with general EU external relations policy.

This too

ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES
Schengen countries are obliged to deploy sufficient staff and resources to ensure a “high and uniform level of control” at the external borders of the Schengen area. They must also ensure that border guards are properly trained. EU and Schengen Associated Countries also assist each other with the effective application of border controls via operational cooperation, which is coordinated by the EU agency Frontex. Its main task is to augment and to add value to, border control activities of the Member States. Thus the agency is also mandated to assist EU countries in raising and harmonising border management standards with the aim of combating cross-border crime while making legitimate passage across the external border of the EU faster and easier.

The Schengen area now extends along some 44,000 km of external sea borders and almost 9,000 km of land borders. Schengen comprises 26 countries (including a number of non-EU states, so-called Schengen Associated Countries), meaning free internal movement for nearly half a billion people. It should be noted that the removal of checks at internal borders makes the controls at external borders much more important, since Schengen members are thus reliant on the checks made by other members. Simply put, the Schengen area’s border is only as strong as its weakest link.

The Schengen Borders Code includes a series of detailed measures designed to compensate for the abolition of internal border controls by tightening security at the Union’s external frontiers. It clearly states that the primary responsibility of border control lies with those Schengen countries that have an external border – including land and sea borders and international airports. One key requirement is that Member States having an external frontier must ensure that proper checks and effective surveillance are carried out there.

How it works
While regular border control is the exclusive responsibility of the Member States, Frontex’s role focuses on coordination of deployment of additional experts and technical equipment to those border areas which find themselves under significant pressure. Frontex also builds the capacity of the member states in various areas related to border control, including training and sharing of best practices.

Intelligence-driven
Frontex joint operations are planned and developed on the basis of an Annual Risk Analysis Report which analyses the likely future risk of irregular migration and cross-border crime along the EU external border. During the annual meetings with Member States the agency then prioritises the proposed joint operations on the basis of their importance and the resources available in order to ensure an effective response.

Consultation with Member States
Together with the host country Frontex makes an assessment of the number of officers with specific expertise and the quantity and type of technical equipment required. Frontex then directs a request to all Member States and Schengen Associated Countries for the necessary officers, clearly specifying their required profiles (false document experts, border checks, surveillance experts, dog handlers, debriefers etc) as well as specific equipment needed for the operation (e.g. helicopters, planes, patrol cars, thermo-vision equipment, heart-beat detectors). Those countries then decide on the level of contribution they can make to the joint operation.

Operational Plan
This document clearly defines the aim of each joint operation, where it is to take place and the quantities and types of technical equipment and officers to take part. Many operations require the deployment of debriefers, who conduct interviews with migrants with the purpose of gathering information about people-smuggling networks. In addition, cultural mediators and interpreters enable migrants to express themselves in their own languages. The operational plan also clearly states the rules of engagement for officers taking part in the operation.

Implementation
At this stage, border guards and technical equipment are deployed to the operational area and carry out their duties according to the operational plan. The deployed officers (guest officers) work under the command and control of the authorities of the country hosting the operation.

During deployment guest officers have capacity to perform all tasks and exercise all powers for border checks or border surveillance in accordance with Schengen Borders Code being border checks, border surveillance, stamping, interviewing undocumented persons, consultation of databases.

They wear their national uniforms and a blue armband (picture) with the insignia of the EU and Frontex. For the purposes of identification vis-à-vis national authorities and citizens, guest officers carry an accreditation document, provided by Frontex, which they must present on request.

Code of conduct
All officers deployed to an operation coordinated by Frontex are bound by the code of conduct, which includes specific provisions on the respect of fundamental rights and the right to international protection and lays out a set of behavioural standards that all staff involved in a Frontex joint operation must follow.

Evaluation
Once completed, each operation is evaluated by Frontex, the participating countries and other stakeholders involved ensuring that the operational process is constantly refined.

Their role is basically a backround role in coordinating standards and training, and in coordinting emergency rapid response. Note, coordinating, not performing, where the personel brought in work under the auspices and withnthe authority of he member nation they are helping.

Greece should further have been asking for help, before she did, and thst was only after tge evaluation report was in.

Yes irregular migration into Greece is now down. Greece was never the destination but just one stepping stone to Northern Europe. There is nothing in Greece for the migrants. The land borders are effectively shut by Greece's non Eu neighboors so the migrants are stuck. The word gets out, "the way is shut"' so fewer bother. At the same time Greece is now better monitoring and processing irregular migrants, as recommended in the 12 Feb recommendations, plus the deal with Turkey.. One must wonder, apart from partly implementing eu recommendations so some serious deficiencies remain, what else has Greece done on her own to reduce the flow, and implemting those recommendations was Greece only putting in place what the EU thought should probably have been already operative.

I myself made it clear i not want border controls on Greece. Good, but i ask again

gig, oracle, chimera, phoenix orcwhat ever you csll yourself, Did the EU use the words "serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controlls by Greece"?"

YES OR NO

I will keep,asking.