Cyprus-Forum.com

[supporttheunderdog]

Interesting that you refer to an old press release, which dos not take away from the fact that whether you like it or not , and your opinion that it was different, primary responsibility for Control of the EU external border of a member nation rests with The member nation not FRONTEX, and where FRONTEX's role is defined in EU law. The opening of this office did not in fact change the role of FRONTEX as so defined in EC2007/2004 as at various times amended, including in 2013 after that office was opened, but to facilitate local performsnce if that role.

You have thrown around the phrase shared responsibility, but without regard to what the mechanism was and the legally defined role of Frontex in it.

Anyway now we have the verdict, reported here in a press release
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1627_en.htm
And with the decision itself.
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/proposal-implementation-package/docs/20160504/schengen_proposal_en.pdf

You can argue till you are blue in the face about what you think the hypothetical position should have been, that is your opinion but you are certainly not the EU and all the documents reflect what those whose opinion counts, ie the EU Commission, and Council that GREECE Not FRONTEX Was resposible for border management and GREECE not FRONTEX was seriously deficient, and that not all the deficiencies have been corrected.

The French had reportedly taken their own measures, from 26th April, preempting the Official decision.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/05/05/paris-airport-treats-greeks-as-non-schengen-zone-members/

Please argue with the French about that. They are no doubt sensitive to the fact that at least some of the Paris attackers came through Greece.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Interesting that you refer to an old press release, ....

Of course I had to refer to an old press release if I was looking for evidence to make a point on:

Greece's challenge was recognised several years ago:

As for Frontex, it's being overhauled because it was deficient! There's little point stating *this or that* were its roles because it wasn't working efficiently.

Let's see how they cope now, onward ....

[repulsewarrior]

Indeed, Europe, ie the EU, is obliged to represent itself, its Sovereignty, at, its borders, now. Not because Greece is inept, i might add, the Greek people have acted in an exemplary fashion (and in a manner other Europeans can emulate), but because there is a Turkish Agenda which has for years exploited this weakness in the EU's way of doing things.

Erdogan is right about one thing, Europe is not prepared to look at its Islamic face. And in the face of mass migration, this hypocrisy is exposed, what with the notions of European solidarity so utterly exposed as non existent, toward the victims of the Ignorance, Hunger, and Disease, that they are sworn to Hate, as their common enemy.

[supporttheunderdog]

Unfortunately the EU has identified a few areas where tgerecwas room for improvement in Greece's performance in the part of her shared obligations which she has under EU Law. That includes clear reports on what I woukd term lack of joined up thinking to make best use of the Navy and Army, lack of cooordinstion with the police etc, which have resulted in 50 recommedantions of corrective action. As it is, The EU, not Erolz or I, have decided that Greece was seriouslly deficient in the performance of its obligations under ec1053/2013. That is fact which notwithstanding anything else cannot be denied. Rather a we have a deluded fanatic here who will not even admit the words used by the EU bodies were said by the EU. Rather Mrs Goebbels has been has been using all the tricks of the trade to try to make us think black was white.... and failing. She cannot even manage to get it to something between black and white, let alone 50 shades of gray.

All credit to the many Greek people who have shown common humanity to the irregular migrants.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Jobsworths.

These are the people who have previously self-identified as anti-EU. And yet, if they can now find something anti-Greek, they are suddenly united with the EU - suddenly they become the self-proclaimed messengers of EU when in the past they had nothing but criticism for the EU. But the EU must finally be doing something right, in their eyes, if these racist can finally find some anti-Greek stuff to support the EU with. But as they see the sea-change, the good foundations laid by Greeks shining through and some world-support making a difference, they will slowly climb aboard and pretend they never meant to lay false claims against Greece. History is full of such sycophants and opportunists. Greece is down, join in with the kicking. Greece is up, pretend you have loved her all along.

Hypocrites, liars and racists.

[Robin Hood]

I don't agree with GIG's version of events but I do have a great sympathy for the Greek people. I cannot for the life of me see how the EU or any official body can blame the Greeks for failures in border security except on the grounds that as a Government they are the desk that the buck stops at! This is a country that has been bought to its knees by the IMF/EU and are suffering terribly to this so called austerity, something that has been proven to be antithetical to economic recovery.

The following says they are not only down but are now having the s**t kicked out of them. How many of the Greeks are aware that of all the billions of Euros given to them as bail-out loans ....... 95% of it went straight back to the very same banks that lent it to them in the first place? Why have a proud people just laid down and let these vultures walk all over them? Why has there not been a revolution ..... even a civil war?

How can you build up a proper security at the border, which requires resources such as medical, administrative, police and military, when the very people who demand it throw more burdens on the depleted system but, at the same time, screw them for every thing they have got?

Greece Captured in Death Spiral

http://www.globalresearch.ca/greece-cap ... al/5524606

Bailout Has Saved Banks, Not Greece. Report
[url]
http://www.globalresearch.ca/bailout-ha ... rt/5523827[/url]

Financial Warfare and the Destruction of Greece as a Nation

http://www.globalresearch.ca/financial-warfare-and-the-destruction-of-greece-as-a-nation/5521653

Greece will not be the last country to go this way ...........

[GreekIslandGirl]

Yeah, thanks. You may not like to agree with my *version of events* - but you have, though, summarized my actual 'version' of events, perfectly. We're on the same page, singing from the same hymn book!

[erolz66]

Yeah, thanks. You may not like to agree with my *version of events* - but you have, though, summarized my actual 'version' of events, perfectly. We're on the same page, singing from the same hymn book!

Your 'version of events' was not and is not that it was a direct consequence of the economic situation in Greece, that Greece was found by the EU to be seriously neglecting it's obligations re border management. That would be a rational argument. 'Your version of events' has been for over four months that the EU did NOT find Greece to be seriously neglecting it's obligations at all, and that anyone who said the EU had concluded what the EU had said they had concluded, was a Greek hating liar. That is not rational argument, it is denial of reality.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Yeah, thanks. You may not like to agree with my *version of events* - but you have, though, summarized my actual 'version' of events, perfectly. We're on the same page, singing from the same hymn book!

Your 'version of events' was not and is not that it was a direct consequence of the economic situation in Greece, that Greece was found by the EU to be seriously neglecting it's obligations re border management. That would be a rational argument. 'Your version of events' has been for over four months that the EU did NOT find Greece to be seriously neglecting it's obligations at all, and that anyone who said the EU had concluded what the EU had said they had concluded, was a Greek hating liar. That is not rational argument, it is denial of reality.

I would stop paraphrasing me incorrectly if I were you.

The deficiencies at the EU external border management are referred to with the term 'Greece' only because that is the geographical site being identified with the greatest influx of migrants from Turkey. The individual members concerned, represented by the (deficient) presence of Frontex are all the member states.

Maybe you prefer Robin's *version* of this:

I cannot for the life of me see how the EU or any official body can blame the Greeks for failures in border security except on the grounds that as a Government they are the desk that the buck stops at!

However, if you delve a little deeper to answer his final clause, that's because Frontex had an out-clause on responsibility - now to be corrected. And all your rants will be seen for what they are - nothing more/less than racist.

[erolz66]

I would stop paraphrasing me incorrectly if I were you.

It does not matter if I paraphrase you, quote you with a full link, multiple quote you with such, you still just deny reality because this is what you do. The reality is your 'argument' for moths has been the EU did not criticise Greece, an argument you are still trying to make below - despite the actual reality that they did criticise Greece.

The deficiencies at the EU external border management are referred to with the term 'Greece' only because that is the geographical site being identified with the greatest influx of migrants from Turkey. The individual members concerned, represented by the (deficient) presence of Frontex are all the member states.

There can be deficiencies IN Greece that are not the primary responsibility OF Greece that represent failing BY Greece or there can be deficiencies IN Greece that ARE the primary responsibility OF Greece and represent failings BY Greece. Which of these the EU has explicitly stated is the case, is clear, unambiguous and undeniable. Yet you have spent 4 months arguing that what the EU has explicitly said is the case is not what the EU has said is the case, because this is what you do.

Maybe you prefer Robin's *version* of this:

I cannot for the life of me see how the EU or any official body can blame the Greeks for failures in border security except on the grounds that as a Government they are the desk that the buck stops at!

Robin Hood's argument is based on a premise that the EU has blamed Greece for such failures and thus is a rational one. Your argument of the last four months and counting is that the EU has not and did not blame Greece at all and is thus a denial of reality. That you then also claim that Robin Hood's argument is the same as yours is itself just another example of how you just deny and distort reality to suit your needs.

And all your rants will be seen for what they are - nothing more/less than racist.

Stating over and over that the EU has said what the EU has said, in the face of your months of claims that the EU has not said what the EU has said, is not racist. It is a stubborn refusal to let your blatant incessant distortion of actual reality go unchallenged.